KEF LS50 and Audience The One compared to Omega 3i or Omega 3 Desktop

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Canada Rob

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This is how I want to set up a pair of Super 3is (I think these would work better for me than the Desktop version).  If anyone has a similar setup with Super 3is, I would really appreciate some feedback on Siberian Khatru by Yes.  If the bass notes sound clear throughout the song, I will be psyched.  I've got a sub off to the right side of the room in the corner, but I don't think it is contributing much to the sound issue----I really think the bass notes are above where I crossover the sub.

Thanks.

Here's a link to my system:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=2118
Flinx,

I have no desire to sound negative, but your setup needs help.  The link shows with the Super 3 Desktop but I've run Super 3is on there too with excellent results.  http://desktopaudioboutique.com/desktopstereo.html

DaveC113

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Absolutely! And I can appreciate that Dave was merely expressing his own personal opinion. However I'm still interested in the specifics, particularly what he meant by "many aspects of speaker performance" in the context of the rest of his statement.

Omegas and other top single drivers do many things very well.

- "Coherance" - I'd define as the successful blending of the entire frequency range, single drivers have no issue with drivers in multiple locations or poor crossover performance

- Imaging / Soundstage - single drivers with the right amp and acoustic environment can provide an immersive listening experience that few multi way speakers can match

- Resolution - single drivers often resolve detail multi-way speakers cannot, this is a result of poor crossover components and/or drivers that are incapable of higher resolution. Once you have heard the detail that a simple, but high end, single driver system is capable of you will realize these details are absent on many systems, even expensive ones.

- PRAT - kind of goes with resolution... with no xover, a light cone and a powerful motor a good single driver can react very quickly.

That said, the last system TAD setup at RMAF did every "single driver" thing better than any single driver I've ever heard. But the system cost more than my house. To have a speaker with multiple drivers and a more complicated cabinet, but keeping the same quality as one driver and a simple cabinet, is going to cost more money. To build a crossover that is totally transparent is not easily accomplished and is not cheap.

Also, less expensive single drivers can make some unacceptable compromises in terms of uneven frequency response and other things, but Louis' design of the Omega drivers goes a long way to make these things a non-issue, the only other companies making single drivers that have been able to accomplish this cost a small fortune, like $2500 - $50k per pair, just for the drivers...
 




Flinx99

Flinx,

I have no desire to sound negative, but your setup needs help.  The link shows with the Super 3 Desktop but I've run Super 3is on there too with excellent results.  http://desktopaudioboutique.com/desktopstereo.html

That's a beautiful set-up.  Any suggestions are welcome.  My desk is in very similar position related to the room.  The wall on the left is about the same distance, but I have a bit more room in the back, so my speakers can sit about 10 inches away from the wall.  I started with a set of Auralex monitor stands, which positioned my speakers similar to your picture, but I found that I preferred raising them up to get the tweeters at ear level.

I tried placing the speakers closer together, but I have found that once you start using multiple monitors, it is very difficult to go without.  I work remotely at times, so end up running two computers at the same time.  Also, if you work with Excel, running workbooks on separate monitors is great.  I know I am not sitting in an equilateral triangle, but I don't find the soundstage diminished by the distance.  I have also tried toeing in the speakers, but again, straight out works ok.  The soundstage does not collapse and I am completely anal about that.

Oddlly enough, my only frame of reference is an Acoustic Research set-up powering Wilson Audio speakers, the combination of which sounds awesome to my ears.  Maybe the Omegas will let me create a reality show that has a goal of trying to create a poor man's audiophile system by trying to mimic the sound of a great sounding system at a fraction of the price.  My wife watches shows like that for interior decorating---why not audio?

Seriously, all comments are welcome---the goal is to improve my sound and I am certainly not going to get in huff because someone points out a mistake I've made.  Please keep in mind that the only realistic expense I can make is on the speakers.  Right, wrong, or indifferent, my other equipment needs to stay.  Wife's rule.   :)

RDavidson

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As a first step, I'd do everything in my power to get the speakers out from behind the plane of your computer monitors, then adjust toe-in from there.
Toe-in at the speakers' current positions would just blast more sound at the backs of your monitors.

Canada Rob

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If you like the drivers up at ear level, some IsoAcoustic stands would be the ticket in which case I would go with the Super 3i. 
http://www.isoacoustics.com/index.php

Flinx99

As a first step, I'd do everything in my power to get the speakers out from behind the plane of your computer monitors, then adjust toe-in from there.
Toe-in at the speakers' current positions would just blast more sound at the backs of your monitors.

It isn't apparent from this angle, but the speakers are a hair in front of the monitors.  I wanted to get them as far away from my ears as I could manage but still avoid any potential reflections from the speakers.  It all comes back to that nasty weird sound.  I have to concede that I am not going to fix that particular problem with placement, so  I will pull them forward and toe them in.  Do you think 45 degrees (or whatever it takes to aim the tweeters straight at my ears) is ideal?

Flinx99

If you like the drivers up at ear level, some IsoAcoustic stands would be the ticket in which case I would go with the Super 3i.  http://www.isoacoustics.com/index.php

I have read up on those and that is another question I have been pondering.  I'm clearly doing the DIY thing with my stands, but I have been trying to do this intelligently.  I had two sets of Aurelex monitor isolation pads, so I used those interspersed with ceramic tiles and hard rubber furniture floor protectors.  I wanted isolation in addition to height.  I have a large desk, so space really isn't too much of a concern.  Not that I am planning on marketing my stands anytime soon, but what will Isoacoustics provide that mine won't?  I'm not trying to be flip---it's an honest question.

jk@home

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The Iso stands come with different length riser tubes and tube spacers, which allow you to change the height and angle of the speakers. Not that you can't do that now with what you have, but it won't look as, what's the word... MAcGyver-ish (if you are familar with that old TV series) :D

Flinx99

The Iso stands come with different length riser tubes and tube spacers, which allow you to change the height and angle of the speakers. Not that you can't do that now with what you have, but it won't look as, what's the word... MAcGyver-ish (if you are familar with that old TV series) :D

I tried paperclips and band-aids first, but MacGyver never had to tackle speaker stands.

Canada Rob

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Not that I am planning on marketing my stands anytime soon, but what will Isoacoustics provide that mine won't?  I'm not trying to be flip---it's an honest question.
Sonically the IsoAcoustics stands may be no better, but personally I prefer the look of the IsoAcoustics.  The only thing you can do is try a set on a 30 day return policy and judge for yourself.

roscoe65

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"Sonically the IsoAcoustics stands may be no better, but personally I prefer the look of the IsoAcoustics.  The only thing you can do is try a set on a 30 day return policy and judge for yourself."

I'm in the midst of a somewhat elaborate speakers stand project.  Part of the stands include a pair of Isoacoustics stands.  By the time I'm done I could have commissioned a custom set of stands to do exactly what I want, but I would have been left with a solution with no future use should I decide to change my current setup.  An advantage of Isoacoustics over a homebrew solution is that there is a strong secondary market should your needs change.  Isoacoustics stands run about $80 a pair for the desktop version and can be resold for about half that if you wish to change down the road.

RDavidson

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It isn't apparent from this angle, but the speakers are a hair in front of the monitors.  I wanted to get them as far away from my ears as I could manage but still avoid any potential reflections from the speakers.  It all comes back to that nasty weird sound.  I have to concede that I am not going to fix that particular problem with placement, so  I will pull them forward and toe them in.  Do you think 45 degrees (or whatever it takes to aim the tweeters straight at my ears) is ideal?

I would just adjust toe-in to your liking. I don't think you want the tweeters pointed directly at your ears, but I could be wrong. It depends on the speakers' dispersion characteristics.
My guess is that aiming them somewhere over your shoulders or just outside your shoulders would work well.

Flinx99

"Sonically the IsoAcoustics stands may be no better, but personally I prefer the look of the IsoAcoustics.  The only thing you can do is try a set on a 30 day return policy and judge for yourself."

I'm in the midst of a somewhat elaborate speakers stand project.  Part of the stands include a pair of Isoacoustics stands.  By the time I'm done I could have commissioned a custom set of stands to do exactly what I want, but I would have been left with a solution with no future use should I decide to change my current setup.  An advantage of Isoacoustics over a homebrew solution is that there is a strong secondary market should your needs change.  Isoacoustics stands run about $80 a pair for the desktop version and can be resold for about half that if you wish to change down the road.

Agreed.  I spent about $15 on these stands when I put them together recently.  I already had the pads from earlier setups (I was using them for two sets of speakers at the same time) and the ceramic tiles were in the garage leftover from a bathroom remodel done more than 10 years ago. I did need to run to Home Depot to pick up the floor protectors.  There are also silicone pot holders between the speakers and the tile.  Bed, Bath, and Beyond

Also, will Isoacoustics support cats jumping on top of the speakers? This is actually a serious concern and is an issue I face on a daily basis.

Flinx99

I would just adjust toe-in to your liking. I don't think you want the tweeters pointed directly at your ears, but I could be wrong. It depends on the speakers' dispersion characteristics.
My guess is that aiming them somewhere over your shoulders or just outside your shoulders would work well.

I have been quite impressed with the dispersion, actually; even leaning forward with the speakers facing straight out, the soundstage and imaging remain intact and cymbals sound natural to me.  Right at my ears may be too much and introduce some harshness.  I will test.

DaveC113

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Sonically the IsoAcoustics stands may be no better, but personally I prefer the look of the IsoAcoustics.  The only thing you can do is try a set on a 30 day return policy and judge for yourself.

The isoacoustics stands are far better sonically vs any other stand I've ever tried, including for subwoofer use. They make a huge difference.


jk@home

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"Sonically the IsoAcoustics stands may be no better, but personally I prefer the look of the IsoAcoustics.  The only thing you can do is try a set on a 30 day return policy and judge for yourself."

I'm in the midst of a somewhat elaborate speakers stand project.  Part of the stands include a pair of Isoacoustics stands.  By the time I'm done I could have commissioned a custom set of stands to do exactly what I want, but I would have been left with a solution with no future use should I decide to change my current setup.  An advantage of Isoacoustics over a homebrew solution is that there is a strong secondary market should your needs change.  Isoacoustics stands run about $80 a pair for the desktop version and can be resold for about half that if you wish to change down the road.

I modded the top plate of my existing diy stands to fit the Isos. Cut the plate down a bit, and installed oak corner trim around the edges, to hold in the Isoacoustics fairly tightly.

As far as these making the speakers cat proof... I don't think so. Only thing that is going to do that is mass.



RDavidson

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He could also use something like Blue Tack on both the speakers and the base of the stands. Blue Tack is pretty strong stuff as long as there's enough surface contact. I'm not sure the feet of the Isos would have enough surface area, plus coupling everything together probably goes against the intent of the Isos, but it may be worth a try.

JLM

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This is how I want to set up a pair of Super 3is (I think these would work better for me than the Desktop version).  If anyone has a similar setup with Super 3is, I would really appreciate some feedback on Siberian Khatru by Yes.  If the bass notes sound clear throughout the song, I will be psyched.  I've got a sub off to the right side of the room in the corner, but I don't think it is contributing much to the sound issue----I really think the bass notes are above where I crossover the sub.

Thanks
Here's a link to my system:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=2118

Agree with CB, all those monitors as set up make for a very poor audio situation.  Replacing all that mess with a giant monitor mounted on the wall behind would go a long way towards improving the sound (as I retired we'd purchased two 40 inch monitors per desk to view architectural drawings, so I know what you mean about the value of big screens).  Of course one of those monitors would cost more than your total budget.   :duh:

Keep in mind that being located close to the front wall and the desk make for the speakers to function almost as if they are located on floor up against a wall (1/4 space), so bass response is bound to be emphasized and the soundstage compromised.  Modern desktop listening involves a flat panel monitor, which act as a freestanding baffle and further interrupts the soundstage and when placed next to a front wall tends to trap and reinforce bass even more.  Your multiple screens, close to the wall, is amplifying soundstage and bass issues well beyond normal.  Seriously I'd push the screens against the front wall so that the speakers are well out in front of the screens.  That should reduce both issues.

Flinx99

Agree with CB, all those monitors as set up make for a very poor audio situation.  Replacing all that mess with a giant monitor mounted on the wall behind would go a long way towards improving the sound (as I retired we'd purchased two 40 inch monitors per desk to view architectural drawings, so I know what you mean about the value of big screens).  Of course one of those monitors would cost more than your total budget.   :duh:

Keep in mind that being located close to the front wall and the desk make for the speakers to function almost as if they are located on floor up against a wall (1/4 space), so bass response is bound to be emphasized and the soundstage compromised.  Modern desktop listening involves a flat panel monitor, which act as a freestanding baffle and further interrupts the soundstage and when placed next to a front wall tends to trap and reinforce bass even more.  Your multiple screens, close to the wall, is amplifying soundstage and bass issues well beyond normal.  Seriously I'd push the screens against the front wall so that the speakers are well out in front of the screens.  That should reduce both issues.

Here's a new pic to help provide some perspective.  I will pull the speakers forward--- I can't push the speakers much further back or off the desk they'll go.  I should test by taking the side ones off the desk entirety though and see if that helps.  Maybe all.  If the song remains the same without the monitors, I would have to say it's a nearfield phenomenon.

Flinx99

I modded the top plate of my existing diy stands to fit the Isos. Cut the plate down a bit, and installed oak corner trim around the edges, to hold in the Isoacoustics fairly tightly.

As far as these making the speakers cat proof... I don't think so. Only thing that is going to do that is mass.



Or tacks in blue tack on top of the speakers.