[Rclark]

I am not sure what there is to prove. Will your tests show some result?
I am more about the music then sound quality. That said , I like good sound. For me , I plug in in my Sure846's to my iPhone 6 and I'm way happy with the sound.  I sold off my speakers and bought the Andrew Jones  Floor Standers with a matching subwoofer , and I am very happy with the sound for music and movies.
I plug my phone right into the amp. I think it sounds very nice!!

It's more disprove than prove, if you read the thread.

Oh and it will be nice to let MAGNESTAND get some exposure and shut down these forum clowns.

Do you have a favorite song you want me to record?

[kingdeezie]

I just spent some time further enhancing the position of my Maggies, listening to some Spotify right now as I research microphone options, and all I can say is KingDeezer needs to prepare to eat some nasty crow.

If anyone has some reference tracks they'd like to request, place them here. I will also throw my Miller & Kreisels and GR Mod speakers into the mix.

And The Order 1886 as well lol.

Be a few more weeks though.

(Oh, and SRB, great post.)

I was going to leave this thread alone, because frankly, it wasn't going anywhere, but you keep wanting to make it personal.

My initial point, since its clearly been lost in the scuffle....

In my system, the PS4, and Spotify, was easily improved upon. Period. How can you prove me wrong here? How can I "eat crow," when I've experianced the difference first hand? I hate sounding like a snob, because I'm not, but do you think your emotiva DAC would avail the differences between transports better than my Meitner? What reveletion can you possibly bring to me, via compressed internet recordings, that I haven't heard first hand at home?   

What are you going to accomplish with these recordings? I already posted the limitations of that method. I would just save my money on that plan.

Why don't you see if you could find measurements on the PS4 optical output? Noise, jitter, etc. At least if someone measured it and said, "hey this optical output is world class," you would have a reason to say "you're wrong." Doubt that would be the case though.

You would also have the issue of Spotify, which several people on this thread have agreed with me saying it sounds WORSE than redbook and high resolution. Not horrendous, just not as good. But, there opinions are okay, and mine are wrong....

Right.....

Have fun with your experiment, I guess. 

[brother love]

Listening to Sticky Fingers right now and am blown away by the sound quality, easily matching CD ...

Since this is the AudioCircle forum, I think this comment will generate the biggest blowback from posters.  Spotify Premium maximum streaming quality is 320 kbps compressed rate vs. CD quality 1,400 kbps rate.  So I think Rclark is simply stating that he cannot tell the difference between the two (wouldn't be the first to acknowledge that).

Spotify is a great/ convenient resource for accessing a huge library of music. I use it all the time; but when I want to do serious listening, I listen to non-compressed .wav files or Hi-rez files. 

[ernest787]

Since this is the AudioCircle forum, I think this comment will generate the biggest blowback from posters.  Spotify Premium maximum streaming quality is 320 kbps compressed rate vs. CD quality 1,400 kbps rate.  So I think Rclark is simply stating that he cannot tell the difference between the two (wouldn't be the first to acknowledge that).

Spotify is a great/ convenient resource for accessing a huge library of music. I use it all the time; but when I want to do serious listening, I listen to non-compressed .wav files or Hi-rez files.

Yeah I agree with this statement.  If you search the net you can find tons of articles and post regarding the difference between 320 kbps and 1,400 kbps and there is the age old debate weather people can really tell the difference.  (Not that it matters, but I'm in the camp that believes you can).  If you cannot that's ok, and Spotify would absolutely handle your musical needs in that situation.

For me... I use it when I'm on the go or if I'm doing something around the house and just want music in the background.  When I want to sit and really listen to music, it's hi-rez files or vinyl for me. 

I'm really not sure what the OP is arguing anymore to be honest. 

[kingdeezie]

Since this is the AudioCircle forum, I think this comment will generate the biggest blowback from posters.  Spotify Premium maximum streaming quality is 320 kbps compressed rate vs. CD quality 1,400 kbps rate.  So I think Rclark is simply stating that he cannot tell the difference between the two (wouldn't be the first to acknowledge that).

Spotify is a great/ convenient resource for accessing a huge library of music. I use it all the time; but when I want to do serious listening, I listen to non-compressed .wav files or Hi-rez files.

Which is a valid opinion, and I respect that. When people post their experiances, and give valid points to the contrary, saying that we are "forum clowns" who are "wrong" and "insufferable audiophiles," is ridiculous.

Also, again, not to sound like a snob, because my system is no where near world class, but, better equipment sounds better (obvious). Through a 300 dollar DAC/Preamp, there likely is minimal difference between Spotify and Redbook. There might likely also be less of a difference between transports as well. Its the limitation of the equipment. A 3000 TV looks better, and is more revealing of PQ differences, than a 300 dollar TV. Same as a 3000 DAC is more revealing of SQ differences, than a 300 dollar one. Up to a certain point, more money equals better sound.

Doesn't mean the difference in transports, and files, aren't there.

I'm really not sure what the OP is arguing anymore to be honest. 

   

I don't think he does either.

Nevermind the notion that the OP thinks can accurately display his system's performance through a home brewed recording, and have it be a valid comparison to actually in the room listening.

Perhaps, maybe the OP should actually try some different equipment. Home demo some higher end DACs with some better transports. This whole thread might be negated (or validated depending on perspective) with some honest experimentation. Of course, its easier to hurl insults and backhanded jabs, than to actually try and learn things outside of your perspective.

[srb]

Nevermind the notion that the OP thinks can accurately display his system's performance through a home brewed recording, and have it be a valid comparison to actually in the room listening.

I'm not following that proposed scenario at all.

It's possible that a recording of speaker output in an anechoic chamber with studio microphones might reveal something in a sound comparison, but making a recording in a living space with a handheld recorder and its $2 integrated microphones isn't likely to accomplish too much more than a smartphone recording.

Steve

[mresseguie]

"... but, better equipment sounds better (obvious). Through a 300 dollar DAC/Preamp, there likely is minimal difference between Spotify and Redbook. There might likely also be less of a difference between transports as well. Its the limitation of the equipment. A 3000 TV looks better, and is more revealing of PQ differences, than a 300 dollar TV. Same as a 3000 DAC is more revealing of SQ differences, than a 300 dollar one. Up to a certain point, more money equals better sound."

I've often wondered how my own experience might differ if I had a better/excellent DAC. As it is, my DacMagic Plus allows me to hear only a small difference between my streaming 320kbps (not Spotify) music and Redbook quality. I use the streaming music for background music while I'm reading or moving about the house. I've been aware my DAC is the weak link in my system for a while now.

Hmm. Time to do something about that.

[ernest787]

"... but, better equipment sounds better (obvious). Through a 300 dollar DAC/Preamp, there likely is minimal difference between Spotify and Redbook. There might likely also be less of a difference between transports as well. Its the limitation of the equipment. A 3000 TV looks better, and is more revealing of PQ differences, than a 300 dollar TV. Same as a 3000 DAC is more revealing of SQ differences, than a 300 dollar one. Up to a certain point, more money equals better sound."

I've often wondered how my own experience might differ if I had a better/excellent DAC. As it is, my DacMagic Plus allows me to hear only a small difference between my streaming 320kbps (not Spotify) music and Redbook quality. I use the streaming music for background music while I'm reading or moving about the house. I've been aware my DAC is the weak link in my system for a while now.

Hmm. Time to do something about that.

I purchased a Wyred DAC 2 recently and I must say the difference is night and day.  It really does emphasis the difference between what you are feeding it. 

I can get away witha 320 kbps file and not hate the sound, but when I feed it a hi-rez track it's just a different experience.

[Rclark]

You guys are putting words into my mouth, I never said it was the greatest SQ achievable, ever, I said it matches CD and has excellent quality, and it very much does. That combined with the breadth of the library and the bridge-of-the-starship-Enterprise functionality,  it is a huge win and must be considered.



Also, the Ps4 I doubt has low quality optical, considering it's the only output other than HDMI, and my xda 2 is no slouch and has anti jitter circuitry which makes a noticeable difference.

When did the forum go back to Emotiva is garbage? I missed that one. Crow will be served.

[Rclark]

Still researching, but I think I will get a good recording from this combo: a Rode Stereo VideoMic Pro mated to a Tascam DR 22WL, mic at +20, recorder at -12 setting. I think that's what's going to happen here.

I will record at listening position and post in 24bit WAV. Will also throw some Bluray into the mix, Master and Commander is my reference movie audio.

[*Scotty*]

R Clark, you have fallen into the "Hasty Generalization Fallacy" when you presumed that because the Spotify feed from the PS4 equalled the sound quality of your CD player, the PS4 with this 320kbs feed would equal CD playback in all cases.
 This is not the case, hence the push back from people who see the flaw in your reasoning. There are further errors in reasoning of like kind made when you assume that PS4 must be inherently equal to other DACs based upon your experience with the PS4 and your preference for its sound quality.
You like what you like within the context of your system, this is good enough for me. Going any further than this is unwarranted.
Scotty

[Rclark]

I had an ERC 1 and an ERC 2. Both were matched by an xda1 and Music Unlimited.  I'm sorry, those are very, very high quality players. Let's not forget Emotiva is ultimate bang for buck, high end design built in China sold internet direct, no dealers. You can't just say $300 DAC and dismiss it out of hand. They punch well above their weight, it's why they're still in business.

Notice I didn't say "bettered", I said matched. By that I mean we're splitting hairs just about. I CAN hear the differences between sources of varying quality, and can hear to 18.5 khz. I just don't obsess anymore, my system has reached an excellent baseline, and that's what this is.

Will I go hirez, sure, eventually,  I just don't feel like paying $40 per album right now. This is good enough for daily listening to where I dont feel like anything is lacking.

Also, Scotty, I am not using the PS4 Dac, I'm bypassing it straight to the XDA2.

I'm not trying to prove it's the greatest sound quality ever, I am just going to prove that it does sound very very good, and I wanted to record my system anyway, been meaning to, my lowly MMG mods and Ncores, that have been bashed by certain members.

[srb]

You can't just say $300 DAC and dismiss it out of hand. They [Emotiva] punch well above their weight, it's why they're still in business.

No, but someone who has actually owned it and compared it to better DACs can state that in their opinion it is not an excellent DAC nor a really, really good DAC, but simply one of many decent average acceptable DACs.

The Emotiva DAC in conjunction with an optical TOSLINK interface versus an S/PDIF coaxial, AES/EBU or good asynchronous USB interface might possibly explain why you're unable to discern any difference between a 320 kbps compressed stream and a 1411 kbps uncompressed CD or file when many other people can.

Go ahead and make recordings of your speakers if you like, but I don't think anyone on this or any forum will be able to comprehend what in the world that endeavor could possibly prove or disprove. 

Steve

[Rclark]

No, but someone who has actually owned it and compared it to better DACs can state that in their opinion it is not an excellent DAC nor a really, really good DAC, but simply one of many decent average acceptable DACs.

The Emotiva DAC in conjunction with an optical TOSLINK interface versus an S/PDIF coaxial, AES/EBU or good asynchronous USB interface might possibly explain why you're unable to discern any difference between a 320 kbps compressed stream and a 1411 kbps uncompressed CD or file when many other people can.

Go ahead and make recordings of your speakers if you like, but I don't think anyone on this or any forum will be able to comprehend what in the world that endeavor could possibly prove or disprove. 

Steve

I can appreciate all of that. And I'm certainly not parked on XDA 2 forever. I just want to show you guys that it doesnt sound awful, by any means, this cluster of gear,, even though it won't be a 1:1 experience of sitting on my couch with me. You will get the jist. People record their systems all the time.

I was just put off by the word "mediocre", (ps4) it simply just isn't.

Don't forget I have massive diffusers behind my Maggies, you'll get a fairly isolated,  near field experience.

And again, I have excellent hearing, I can hear differences in quality, I know many of you are older, I probably have more sensitive ears than many here. I am just not obsessed anymore. I've reached acceptable system baseline.

*edit I'm listening to John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" right now, and honestly,  the SQ is quite formidable,  I stand by everything I said. Listening with all my might for flaws and it just sounds gorgeously musical, layered, deep, detailed.I'm not sure all 320Kformats are all the same, whatever Spotify is using is top tier for sure.

[*Scotty*]

A useful benchmark of relative performance differences might be had if you could an get an Auralic Vega/Aries combo in your system for a couple of days. If I am not mistaken the Aries can accept a Spotify stream via the Lighting app. While it is comforting to believe that all higher priced equipment fails to deliver a level of performance that is commensurate with their cost, this is not the case.
Scotty

[Rclark]

A useful benchmark of relative performance differences might be had if you could an get an Auralic Vega/Aries combo in your system for a couple of days. If I am not mistaken the Aries can accept a Spotify stream via the Lighting app. While it is comforting to believe that all higher priced equipment fails to deliver a level of performance that is commensurate with their cost, this is not the case.
Scotty

Oh I'm quite certain that you could spend a fortune on gear and blow this away,  just like with anything really, but I've moved on to "A Love Supreme" and listening to the cymbals and high end energy and I fail to hear "mediocre". Rather it matches what I said in my first post, equivalent to CD, and excellent sound quality. purely excellent.

[gregfisk]

Rclark, I just can't take you seriously.

I can easily here the difference between streaming off the internet and any source I have in house. There is no way that Spotify sounds as good as a CD unless your audio gear isn't revealing enough to show it or you can't here well enough to tell the difference.

Just my opinion of course.

[ernest787]

My main issue with the thread was this statement:

"a real end-game solution for music, period"

Audio can be very subjective.  I love the way my AVA 600r sounds.  While that amp has gotten tons of praise, but there are people that don't like the sound.  That's ok.  It works well in my system. 

If you are OK with Spotify, your PS4, and a emotiva dac in your system that is great.  No one can tell you that set up isn't perfect for you.  The best part is, I'm sure there are plenty of other users out there that would agree that this set up works perfect for them.  In fact, I'd venture to say a large portion of the population would be 100% happy with just Spotify and a PS4.

On the flipside, this is a forum that is dedicated to audio with the majority of users classifying themselves as audiophiles.  For better or worse, most of the people on this forum obesses over audio quality and go as far as spending hundred of dollars on audio cables, toy with towing speakers 2-3 cms in different direction to see if it affects sounds, and have invested thousands of dollars in their systems.

You are not likely to find many people in that setting that will agree a PS4, an internet streaming service that tops out at 320 kbps, and a emotiva dac are the end all be all of sound.  Because of this, the thread is running in circles.  There is no reason to be defensive.  Post your thoughts on the set up.  I'm sure it will help others who are interested in doing something similar.

just my thoughts.

[Rclark]

Rclark, I just can't take you seriously.

I can easily here the difference between streaming off the internet and any source I have in house. There is no way that Spotify sounds as good as a CD unless your audio gear isn't revealing enough to show it or you can't here well enough to tell the difference.

Just my opinion of course.

Please read what I said instead of driving the thread in circles. And dude, I have about the highest resolution amplifiers available,  and Magnepans with diffusion. All my gear is XLR fully differential balanced. I am not listening on a bose waveradio so get out of here with that. PLENTY REVEALING. Plus no tinnitus (lmfao) and my ears are quite sensitive.

[Rclark]

My main issue with the thread was this statement:

"a real end-game solution for music, period"

Audio can be very subjective.  I love the way my AVA 600r sounds.  While that amp has gotten tons of praise, but there are people that don't like the sound.  That's ok.  It works well in my system. 

If you are OK with Spotify, your PS4, and a emotiva dac in your system that is great.  No one can tell you that set up isn't perfect for you.  The best part is, I'm sure there are plenty of other users out there that would agree that this set up works perfect for them.  In fact, I'd venture to say a large portion of the population would be 100% happy with just Spotify and a PS4.

On the flipside, this is a forum that is dedicated to audio with the majority of users classifying themselves as audiophiles.  For better or worse, most of the people on this forum obesses over audio quality and go as far as spending hundred of dollars on audio cables, toy with towing speakers 2-3 cms in different direction to see if it affects sounds, and have invested thousands of dollars in their systems.

You are not likely to find many people in that setting that will agree a PS4, an internet streaming service that tops out at 320 kbps, and a emotiva dac are the end all be all of sound.  Because of this, the thread is running in circles.  There is no reason to be defensive.  Post your thoughts on the set up.  I'm sure it will help others who are interested in doing something similar.

just my thoughts.

I see where the problem lies. Let me redefine. "A REAL endgame solution for those who want sterling sound quality and endless convenience with minimal effort and access to the largest musical library on earth, with nanosecond access speeds, and aren't interested in pursuing the minimal, incremental SQ increases brought by other formats"