[Rclark]

Listening to Sticky Fingers right now and am blown away by the sound quality, easily matching CD, and the library... is actually quite shockingly large and varied and includes not just music. Gobsmacked by this service, actually. The speed is unlike anything ever, you've barely selected the song or album and it's going...

The.. cream.. is full tablet or phone control. Epic, epic stuff. More description to come, but OH LAWD

[Rclark]

Ok so a bit more. Rewind several years ago, I had just bought a Galaxy S4 and was in the mood for a music service. I happened to test drive (trial period) Spotify and Music Unlimited at the same time.

Music unlimited had a huge advantage going for it as it also ran on my then Playstation 3 console, which I had wired optical into my then XDA-1 Dac. On another input I used an Emotiva ERC-2 cdp, and had a wall of cd's with a couple new additions a week.

That aside, Spotify had the nicer looking interface, and ran quicker for sure, but I noticed the music selection was severely lacking compared to Music Unlimited, you'd be missing several albums from a band, or couldn't find the music at all, on Spotify. And Music Unlimited ran slower, and took a few seconds to boot, took some time to find a song, but once it got going, the sound quality was excellent. So good in fact, it began making good sense to sell my CDP and begin investing in streaming music full time. And so I did.

Enter the playstation 4. Still going with Music Unlimited. A nicer interface this time, and with the PS4's vast amount of RAM, music could be played over anything, games, web browser, whatever.

A month and a half ago, sudden announcement. Music Unlimited was to be no more, it was now becoming Playstation Music, featuring Spotify. I was FURIOUS. Despite the quirks, I loved MU, and knew I would be downgrading to lesser sound quality and less selection. Music Unlimited had a deep blue, oceanic selection, a worldwide library of music.

Oh what a difference about 4 or 5 years makes.

The Spotify implementation on PS4 is leagues better than anything before it, and makes the PS4 a full fledged, SERIOUS contender to be anyone's transport of music. Anyone's. Pipe out into your favorite DAC and you get:

Probably the biggest selection of music on Earth, even bigger than Music Unlimited, by miles and miles. Not only does it have the same, but suddenly I have Metallica, that age old foe of digital music, and I have every album.

Suddenly I have Led Zeppelin, that age old foe, every Led Zeppelin album that ever existed, side stuff, tribute albums, they include all of it.

Suddenly I have.... audiobooks.. spoken word... genre's that didn't exist before, music for deep sleep, music that is top of lists, music that is trending now, party mixes, for any type of party, the robustness of the selections are quite amazing.

And the sound quality now is superb, absolutely stunning through my XDA-2 and Ncores. Was listening to Rolling Stones, Smashing Pumpkins, anything and everything last night, Miles Davis, and you can hear deep into the recordings down to the flaws if your system is up to it, just like a high end CD system. I had goosebumps from the SQ, lifelike.

The phone app lets you choose SQ levels, but the PS4 app is set to extreme quality.

And the speed, you can flick through the menus, libraries, find whatever, play it, before you've even finished the thought, it is playing, the speed cannot be overstated, it's probably faster than pressing next on your Ipod..

Then comes the part that makes this PS4 a real serious contender as a $400 stand alone (DAC or receiver seperate of course) Transport, a real end-game solution for music, period:

PS4 can suspend/resume instantly. Meaning you can be in Spotify, then when you're done, shut down the PS4 into rest mode (4.5 watt state), and when you come back home, fire up the PS4 (very fast, seconds), and you are instantly back into Spotify, as though it were a standalone stereo unit, as though that's all it did.

Then, deliciously, you are given full control of Spotify with your tablet or phone. I have a 10 inch Galaxy tablet, and S5 phone, but the Tablet is where it's at, big interface, I can leisurely walk around the apartment, change songs, or listen to some comedy, make playlists, etc, all with that same instantaneous speed of direct control.

It is AMAZING.

What an age we live in. I've hung onto my rather large CD collection too long. Time to become an Amazon reseller.

[mresseguie]

Any idea how this compares to TIDAL? (I don't use Tidal, but it sounds similar, yes?)

Perhaps someone out there can offer a comparison.

How do you like the Galaxy S5? My clunker S3 is ready to retire, and I'm thinking S5 or even S6 (not the Edge) may be my new phone. The weird thing is my computer is a Mac Mini and my tablet is an iPad Air. One might expect me to buy an iPhone...

Michael

[Rclark]

Any idea how this compares to TIDAL? (I don't use Tidal, but it sounds similar, yes?)

Perhaps someone out there can offer a comparison.

How do you like the Galaxy S5? My clunker S3 is ready to retire, and I'm thinking S5 or even S6 (not the Edge) may be my new phone. The weird thing is my computer is a Mac Mini and my tablet is an iPad Air. One might expect me to buy an iPhone...

Michael

Never got around to trying Tidal, which I'm sure is excellent but probably nowhere close in content. Plus the sheer elegance of the PS4 implementation with wifi direct between tablets and phones probably cant be matched by any device as plug and play as a ps4.

I did email Tidal and request a ps4 app too. But like i said, whatever Spotify is feeding their Ps4 stream is exquisitely good SQ, I would put it up against anything, especially for $9 a month.

S5 is an enormous upgrade from S3. Much faster, less effort to do stuff, more features

[mresseguie]

Competition is a wonderful thing.

Thanks! 

[Rclark]

Competition is a wonderful thing.

Thanks! 

Yeah man!

This implentation is so perfect beyond words I just can't imagine Tidal having any interest for me now. I can't imagine more than an incremental SQ improvement at best, this codec sounds incredible, and this service is so fleshed out.

[kingdeezie]

Not to crap in the proverbial punch bowl, but IMO, the PS4 is not a serious contender for anyone's transport for music, period.

First off, as of now, as far as I know, the thing can't play CDs. They added MP3 support from a USB drive, but I don't believe they added FLAC, WAV, ALAC, etc, etc, etc support. So, it makes a horrendous music media/server transport.

Secondly, the SQ of the digital optical output is medicare at best. I have a gaming PC, as well as a PS4. I have the PS4 hooked up via optical to my DAC, and the PC hooked up USB to my DAC. I use the Jriver 20 windows driver to live stream the PC sound directly to the DAC via AISO for bit perfect streaming.

The difference in sound even when gaming is significant. The PC sounds more relaxed, open, and natural. Even though most video game soundtracks are recorded like crap, it never draws attention to its flaws. The PS4, even with the stellar sound work on The Order 1886, has a tendency to sound strident, and closed in, especially with vocals.

This difference translates to various degrees as well with Netflix, Youtube, etc, etc.

Now, in terms of convenience, I would absolutely agree with you that the PS4 offers a lot of amenities, as well as access to some pretty great gaming exclusives (loving Bloodborne right now), but I don't think the Spotify app provides any where near ultimate or reference level SQ.

Even Spotify streamed from my PC, bit perfect through AISO via Jriver, sounds significantly worse than ripped FLAC CDs played through the same mechanism.

I do love Spotify on the go though. Use it in my car everyday.   

[Rclark]

Mmmm no you're wrong, there's nothing mediocre about ps4's audio output, indeed it plays high end 1080P games and bluray movies and is quite excellent with sound, as it must be. Sony doesn't make mediocre anything, I'm sorry.

It doesn't play CD's, but it does play mp3 etc, via USB. But why would you do that when you have Spotify and a tablet?

I doubt you've even tried it, no rain taken

It's going to be pretty huge, already several million adopters since last week.

Phenomenal sound quality.

Oh and LMAO at The Order sounding 'strident'. I own that game. Now I know you're full of it. Don't make me go buy an H4 recorder and shw you up.

[kingdeezie]

This is exactly why this thread is dead. Your reaction to dissenting opinions are the exact same everytime you post.

Yes I have tried it, yes I own a PS4. What else have you tried?

It doesn't play CD's, but it does play mp3 etc, via USB. But why would you do that when you have Spotify and a tablet?

As far as I know, it only plays MP3s. No FLAC, No WAV, No ALAC. Why would you do it? How about much better SQ?

I'm really happy for you that you think a 300 dollar DAC, and a PS4 offers end of the line, world class sound, but some of us KNOW better, because we have actually been through a ton of equipment, experimentation, and experiance, and have higher expectations.

That doesn't make me "full of it."

Enjoy your mid fi and pompous know it all attitude.

[ernest787]

That escalated quickly 

I have used the PS4 spotify app, and it's awesome for what it is.  I enjoy playing sports games but hate the soundtracks on them and get burned out on the commentary pretty quickly.  The Spotify app is a godsend for that use. 

As for the sound quality.  It's not terrible, but it's not great either.  I have a pair of Salk Songtowers with Ribbon Tweeters in my living room for TV purposes with a crown power amp, sherborn pre-amp, and the PS4.  In my den I have a pair of Salk HT3s with a AVA 600r, Wyred DAC2, and a ARC preamp.  Obviously, the sound in the den is much, much better.... but if you just compare the Spotify streaming in the two rooms there is a big difference.

Tidal is audibly better than Spotify.  It's a huge difference actually.  I used a Tidal trial for a bit and listened to the same albums on both platforms and it made me want to switch services.  The only reason I have not switched is b/c of price (Tiday is $20 a month and Spotify is $9), and the accessibility of spotify. 

I'm really hoping Tidal begins to move into some of the spaces Spotify already occupies and picks up steam. 

All that said, Spotify is a good service, and one I've enjoyed since it launched; however, it is far from a replacement for serious listening with higher resolution formats.

[Rclark]

That escalated quickly 

I have used the PS4 spotify app, and it's awesome for what it is.  I enjoy playing sports games but hate the soundtracks on them and get burned out on the commentary pretty quickly.  The Spotify app is a godsend for that use. 

As for the sound quality.  It's not terrible, but it's not great either.  I have a pair of Salk Songtowers with Ribbon Tweeters in my living room for TV purposes with a crown power amp, sherborn pre-amp, and the PS4.  In my den I have a pair of Salk HT3s with a AVA 600r, Wyred DAC2, and a ARC preamp.  Obviously, the sound in the den is much, much better.... but if you just compare the Spotify streaming in the two rooms there is a big difference.

Tidal is audibly better than Spotify.  It's a huge difference actually.  I used a Tidal trial for a bit and listened to the same albums on both platforms and it made me want to switch services.  The only reason I have not switched is b/c of price (Tiday is $20 a month and Spotify is $9), and the accessibility of spotify. 

I'm really hoping Tidal begins to move into some of the spaces Spotify already occupies and picks up steam. 

All that said, Spotify is a good service, and one I've enjoyed since it launched; however, it is far from a replacement for serious listening with higher resolution formats.

Well obviously you can get better, higher resolution formats elsewhere, wasn't my point. I just said it matched CD and wasn't pure garbage as deezer was unsuccessfully trying to paint it. On my system, XDA2, Ncores, Maggies, it sounds excellent, I wasn't lying, I listen as critically as anyone here.

For content and function it is certainly unmatched regardless of price, and any SQ issues would be your stereo not the PS4, all it does is pump 1's and 0's, you aren't listening to the built in DAC at all lol.

I can imagine Spotify adding high rez later, they are poised to dominate the market.

And what I said stands, for those who aren't billionaire's, pardon me, I forgot where I was yes, a PS4 with Spotify, add your phone and have  a SERIOUS end-game source.

[kingdeezie]

Well obviously you can get better, higher resolution formats elsewhere, wasn't my point. I just said it matched CD and wasn't pure garbage as deezer was unsuccessfully trying to paint it. On my system, XDA2, Ncores, Maggies, it sounds excellent, I wasn't lying, I listen as critically as anyone here.

For content and function it is certainly unmatched regardless of price, and any SQ issues would be your stereo not the PS4, all it does is pump 1's and 0's, you aren't listening to the built in DAC at all lol.

I can imagine Spotify adding high rez later, they are poised to dominate the market.

And what I said stands, for those who aren't billionaire's, pardon me, I forgot where I was yes, a PS4 with Spotify, add your phone and have  a SERIOUS end-game source.

First off, I never said it was garbage. I said it was mediocre, and in no way, by itself, a serious end game source. Also, saying, what amounts to, "I'm right, and you're wrong," is not a good enough rebuttal to say that my attempts were unsuccessful. Maybe in your head your response "showed me up," but I presented legitimate experience and facts, unanswered.

Secondly, the quality of the digital output of equipment is important. There is this thing called jitter, and companies like PS Audio, Genesis, Monarchy, Wyred4Sound, Empirical Audio, Audiophileo, M2Tech, DCS, etc, etc, have made many successful products that specifically deal with jitter to acquire better sound quality from less than stellar sources. Power supply, isolation, etc, etc, also all can make a difference in the sound of a transport.

Thirdly, you can keep saying that Spotify sounds as good as CD, and this is completely your opinion, and I can't disprove an opinion. But, for a lot of people, it is completely untrue. The differences are significant.

Fourthly, you don't need to be anywhere near a billionaire to completely outclass the PS4 is every imaginable way.

Build a PC.

No, I'm not kidding.

For probably as little as 600, and up to the skies the limit, with a little research, and "elbow grease," you can have a hyper PS4. IMO and experience, Jriver Windows Driver, USB out and direct to a DAC, will be a better source than a PS4.

With the PC, you can listen to Spotify, Beats, Tidal, Netflix, etc, etc, etc, etc, all bitstream perfect, and direct to your DAC via the USB output and Jriver.

You can now also listen to CDs, DVDs, Blurays, as well as rip files directly to the computer hard drive in any format you wish.

You also will have access to High Rez digital files from all across the internet. Depending on the DAC, you would also have access to DSD and DXD files, streamed directly to your DAC.

Also, depending on how much emphasis you put on gaming, the PC would also play multi platform games at higher levels of fidelity, and faster frame rates, for an overall better gaming experience. No, you don't have to spend 1000s on video cards to achieve this. The new consoles have proven themselves to be ridiculously underpowered. Even having trouble maintaing 30 FPS in a lot of games (watch the digital foundry FPS video on Bloodborne).

Bottom line is, as an audio specific device, the PS4 is lacking. It can only stream music from Spotify, and not Tidal. It doesn't play CDs, and its music playback functionality is limited. The quality of its digital output is limited to optical toslink, and is not that great either. How you can claim its an end game transport is beyond me. Seems obviously limited.

For a few hundred dollars more, a home built PC seems significantly more capable.   

 

 

[Rclark]

Again, you're simply wrong. And thanks for assuming my knowledge of PC builds. I was building PC's when the first 3D cards and soundcards became available , 3DFx, Matrox, Soundblaster, 16, 32, Audigy, been there done that a million times over. Seriously. You're no revelation. PC was how i became an audiophile, it's my roots. But thank you very much for the tutorial.

There is nothing even mediocre about this app. It sounds as good as CD. Sure, you can do better, one can always do better, but the PS4 has more than adequate sound capability, and I'm not even using its Dac.

Rather I feel you have an agenda to push and now I will buy a recorder and prove you wrong with evidence.

[srb]

Everyone has an opinion, hopefully I can voice mine without the OP getting angry. 

1.  Spotify Premium at a compressed bitrate of 320kbps is NOT as good as uncompressed 1411kbps CD quality.  There is some simplistic music (not simplistic as in simple-minded, but music that is sparser and less complex in harmonic content and total energy) that sounds very close, but the majority of it does not and I've done many comparisons.

2.  The TOSLINK optical S/PDIF interface is NOT as good as coaxial S/PDIF or AES/EBU likely due to the dual conversion steps from electrical to optical and back to electrical.  The amount of jitter is always measurably higher and can be confirmed with a jitter analyzer, oscilloscope and human ears.  I've done many listening comparisons here as well with sources that have both optical and coaxial outputs.

3.  The quality of the DAC can either hide or spotlight the differences between source bitrates and optical vs coaxial S/PDIF interfaces.  I briefly owned the Emotiva DAC and I would say it erred on the side of hiding the differences.  Is it a good remote-controlled DAC value for just $300?  Yes.  Are there audible improvements to be revealed with a better DAC?  No question in my mind.

All that being said, I routinely get a lot of listening enjoyment from a handful of 256kbps to 320kbps streaming sources, however I get even more from my uncompressed ripped CDs and downloaded files.

Steve 

[kingdeezie]

Again, you're simply wrong. And thanks for assuming my knowledge of PC builds. I was building PC's when the first 3D cards and soundcards became available , 3DFx, Matrox, Soundblaster, 16, 32, Audigy, been there done that a million times over. Seriously. You're no revelation. PC was how i became an audiophile, it's my roots. But thank you very much for the tutorial.

There is nothing even mediocre about this app. It sounds as good as CD. Sure, you can do better, one can always do better, but the PS4 has more than adequate sound capability, and I'm not even using its Dac.

Rather I feel you have an agenda to push and now I will buy a recorder and prove you wrong with evidence.

I hate to use this word, but, are you "trolling?" You have to be. This can't be serious. "You're no revelation." What???   

Jesus Christ, I don't even know how to respond to you anymore. I've tried being rational, but that only ends in a personal attack, and the ever argument winning "You are wrong."

You haven't once addressed any of my points with some logic.

And you are going to by a H4 recorder to prove me wrong? As if my stereo isn't telling me the truth, but a $200 dollar pocket recorder is going to!?!?! WHAT???!??! 

Is that still going to be recorded through the emotiva DAC? Are you going to use the built in world class microphones on the H4? How do you plan to mitigate the room effects on the end recorded sound?

What are you going to compare Spotify on the PS4 to? CDs through the PS4? Oh wait, can't play em, damn. How about FLAC? OH WAIT, can't play em.

And even after the sound is gloriously reproduced through the Emotiva DAC, and recorded 1:1 through a 200 dollar pocket recorder, and you manage to not have to compress the files you post, the majority of the people that listen to them are supposed to hear a difference on their Macbook speakers?

Sounds highly scientific and reliable to me.   

I have no agenda. The problem with posts filled with hyperbole, is that inexperienced people read things online, and take them to heart. The point of a forum is rational discussion, not condemnation of dissenting opinion.

I posted my experiences between the PS4 and another transport (PC) in my system, and noted the PS4 was significantly outperformed by the PC.

If you want a circle jerk full of automatons, agreeing with your statements, please post that in the subject heading, so people that want to engage in conversation can just bypass the whole damn thread. 

[JDUBS]

Again, you're simply wrong. And thanks for assuming my knowledge of PC builds. I was building PC's when the first 3D cards and soundcards became available , 3DFx, Matrox, Soundblaster, 16, 32, Audigy, been there done that a million times over. Seriously. You're no revelation. PC was how i became an audiophile, it's my roots. But thank you very much for the tutorial.

There is nothing even mediocre about this app. It sounds as good as CD. Sure, you can do better, one can always do better, but the PS4 has more than adequate sound capability, and I'm not even using its Dac.

Rather I feel you have an agenda to push and now I will buy a recorder and prove you wrong with evidence.

Wow, you are hilarious.  You've been building computers for so long yet you don't know the different varieties of USB.

320kb is 320kb no matter how you slice it.  It will NEVER sound as good as non-lossy compressed material. 

-Jim

[toddbagwell]

Guys, please tone down the personal and inflammatory tone in this thread.

I will need to lock it or move it to quarantine if things continue down the path on which they are currently.

Todd

[Rclark]

My system sounds fantastic, sourced with yes, a Ps4. Surely Ncores and Maggie's would qualify as revealing enough of bad sound yes? Mediocre? My god, I think I've come to realize just how insufferable audiophiles are and why people can't stand us. I shall work to extricate myself from this cult.

Meanwhile, to save my dignity here and prove my point I will have an H4 recorder before the end of the month and show you how mediocre and strident my system sounds. Should be a hoot.

Till then.

[Rclark]

I just spent some time further enhancing the position of my Maggies, listening to some Spotify right now as I research microphone options, and all I can say is KingDeezer needs to prepare to eat some nasty crow.

If anyone has some reference tracks they'd like to request, place them here. I will also throw my Miller & Kreisels and GR Mod speakers into the mix.

And The Order 1886 as well lol.

Be a few more weeks though.

(Oh, and SRB, great post.)

[stlrman]

I am not sure what there is to prove. Will your tests show some result?
I am more about the music then sound quality. That said , I like good sound. For me , I plug in in my Sure846's to my iPhone 6 and I'm way happy with the sound.  I sold off my speakers and bought the Andrew Jones  Floor Standers with a matching subwoofer , and I am very happy with the sound for music and movies.
I plug my phone right into the amp. I think it sounds very nice!!