$3500 budget for digital source, suggestions?

barrows · « **Reply #40 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 04:45 am »

Lots of mis-information in this thread re going DAC direct to amps. Impedance mis-match: pretty much nonsense, especially with the low output impedance of the Vega! Compare the output impedance of the Vega to any pre-amp. This is simple math folks. Whether or not a given DAC can properly drive an amplifier directly is a function of the output stage design of the DAC, and contemporary DACs generally have output stages which are exactly the same as that of contemporary preamps. Especially the Vega with its discrete output buffer, low output impedance, and hig output current capability. In fact, the output stage of the Vega is more capable than a number of high end preamps.
Additionally, unless your system has totally innapropriate gain matching (using a very high gain amp with very high sensitivity speakers) using a well designed digital volume control poses no problems: indeed it actually offers better performance than even the best switched resistor ladder and infinitely better than almost any pot. What many fail to realize is that resistor based VCs reduce resolution as well, adding noise in proportion to the amount of attenuation applied.
It is OK with me if some "prefer" the sound of an additional pre-amp, but those who do need to realize that they are preferring having the preamp in the chain because of the added coloration it provides, and not because of better resolution.

RDavidson · « **Reply #41 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 05:07 am »

I don't think there's any misinformation. I never aluded to impedance having anything to do with a DAC's ability (ie max output voltage) to drive an amp. And keep in mind we're not talking about JUST the Auralic Vega. With that said, Scotty said it best "It depends." (Ie, the resulting sound quality, depends on various factors, ie output impedance of any given DAC and the input impedance of any given amp, voltages, desired volume levels, etc. etc).

Note, I would be extremely surprised if lowering the volume digitally via MY DAC 2 SE and running direct to MY amp had better resolution and dynamics, than running the DAC 2 SE at full resolution (ie full output voltage) into my Bent AVC-1 for attenuation. In other words, I don't think my Bent AVC-1 is coloring the sound any more than dropping bits would via digital attenuation, in my system. In fact, I've found dropping bits to kill dynamics and extension. Matter of preference you say? I'm not so certain it isn't more about getting maximum performance in some cases (like mine). I have to attenuate A LOT. Compared to all other preamp types, AVC's and TVC's actually work better the more they attenuate.

MttBsh · « **Reply #42 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 05:37 am »

I too am looking at upgrading my DAC - an Eastern Electric DAC Plus I bought a few years ago. After reading about pretty much every current DAC offering on the planet, I've narrowed it down to the Vega, a Lampizator, or possibly a Resonessence Invicta Mirus. A Lampizator 4, generation 4 can be had for about the cost of the Vega, and several who have owned both DACs claim that the Lampizator outperforms the Vega by a fair margin. Even the $2000 Amber Lampizator is reported to produce superb sound. I have never heard any of these DACs but I think for $2,500 - $3000 these are probably the top contenders. I am retiring in 3 months and will be rewarding myself with a new DAC to enjoy as I put my feet up for the first few months!!

vonnie123 · « **Reply #43 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 05:58 am »

@MttBsh

Retirement = more music time. congrats on your upcoming retirement.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #44 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 02:07 pm »

Take care of room and speaker problems in addition to getting a DAC and grab a DEQX. Might need to look used. Not sure what they have at your price point.

Loving my HDP-4.

JLM · « **Reply #45 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 03:58 pm »

Wow, most of my threads die a quick death. You guys are rocking.

Almost sorry to have mentioned the Vega's volume control, but a couple of the professional reviewers mentioned it (the others used pre-amps). One who did have a problem indicated better sound by adding a pre-amp. I have a pre-amp, but was hoping to be able to download it (especially in a desktop application). Yeah (barrows, Scotty) I don't understand why the Vega (or any other good piece, RDavidson) that advertises being a pre-amp shouldn't be able to perform as such under all but the most extreme conditions. And as a former purist I too am leery of the pre-amps embellishing the sound.

Yes, MttBsh I owned the EE DAC years ago and looked at the Lampizator, but it's too big for desktop and lacks headphone outputs. I'm 91 days into retirement (and counting up), fortunately coasting with a pension while waiting for Social Security to kick in, but wanting to find meaningful part-time work/volunteering.

Phil A, which Teac? (Seems too good to be true if it's the UD-501, which unfortunately lacks pre-amp function.)

Yes, Greyhound I was very hyped over the Hugo last year, but it is really designed for portable use and my speakers are already on the warmer side. The Chordette 2Qute (cheaper desktop version of the Hugo) should be released this month but lacks volume control. Thanks for the link to the professional review of the Exogel Comet. I greatly appreciated your review.

Macrojack, thanks for the note on the Grace, it's on my list to research. (Those with more wants than means, like me, window shop.)

Lots of love from the professional media for Benchmark Dac 2 and Oppo HA-1 but not around these parts, wonder why?

Hegel HD12 and NuPrime DAC-10H should garnish at least a mention (both new) but outside the NuPrime circle, nothing on either. Again wonder why?

roscoeiii, I already have a Behringer DEQ2496, that I'm planning to replace with as part of my player software. Any suggestions?

I'm planning on going to Axpona on the 25th, to hopefully get some impressions and answers.

Phil A · « **Reply #46 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 04:05 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 3 Apr 2015, 03:58 pm

Phil A, which Teac? (Seems too good to be true if it's the UD-501, which unfortunately lacks pre-amp function.)

Yes - did not realize you were looking for a DAC/Preamp at first. That's why I mentioned Exasound later in the thread that I heard at the 2013 Capital Audiofest and was used as a DAC/preamp. Exasound also has a 30 day in home trial so it can be auditioned with what you have and you can be the judge of how it stacks up.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #47 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 04:14 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 3 Apr 2015, 03:58 pm

roscoeiii, I already have a Behringer DEQ2496, that I'm planning to replace with as part of my player software. Any suggestions?

I'm planning on going to Axpona on the 25th, to hopefully get some impressions and answers.

Unfortunately no real suggestions. I went from the DSPeaker Dual Core to the DEQX after reading Kal Rubinson's review of the DEQX and an A'gon thread on the DEQX. DEQX really shines in terms of the speaker correction it does in addition to correcting for room effects. And it has EQ functionality in the digital domain that is massively flexible. If you want a headphone output, then you'd need a separate headphone amp if you go with the DEQX. And if most of your listening is via headphones, then you are missing a lot of the DEQX functionality (though the DSP and speaker correction can be easily bypassed to use it just as a preamp/DAC with analog volume control).

I'll also be at AXPONA. Hope to be able to meet you there!

neekomax · « **Reply #48 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 04:55 pm »

I was just going to mention making room and/or bass correction part of the equation. In my (currently pretty small) room, if I bypass the correction on my DSPeaker Anti-Mode Dual Core, then turn it back on, the difference is insane. Not like, 'oh there's a little tightening up at in the bass', like, 'holy mother of god, that's what's up.' Night and day. Double blind ABX conducted on grandmas who hate music.

Seems to me that this kind of control is worth the $800 (used) or $1,200 (new I think), especially considering you get a good hi-res optical and USB DAC (though not SOTA) and preamp with remote, balanced connections, etc.

With your budget I'd probably pair it with an Auralic Aries and be done. Experiment with which functions played by each unit sound best and rock on into sonic bliss.

2 cents deposited.

Jon L · « **Reply #49 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 05:02 pm »

Quote from: MttBsh on 3 Apr 2015, 05:37 am

I too am looking at upgrading my DAC - an Eastern Electric DAC Plus I bought a few years ago.

I dunno. Tweaked with DEXA discrete op-amps, tube pulled out, via SS output, good power cord (say Triode Wire Labs 7+), with corrected phase (LED light red not green), Eastern Electric Plus DAC is VERY difficult to beat even today IMO

titaniumheads · « **Reply #50 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 06:29 pm »

I also have a Vega in my system. I have tried taking my pre-amp out of the chain and just use the Vega for volume control but much prefer using it with my pre-amp.
I am using a Pass Labs xp30 for the pre. I have had three different DACs with volume control and always preferred having a Pre-amp in the loop.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #51 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 07:17 pm »

Quote from: barrows on 3 Apr 2015, 04:45 am

It is OK with me if some "prefer" the sound of an additional pre-amp, but those who do need to realize that they are preferring having the preamp in the chain because of the added coloration it provides, and not because of better resolution.

Any one who thinks that a preamp does not impart a sound to the music is fooling themselves. Every piece of gear imparts a sound. A DAC being used as a preamp or just as a DAC will have its own sound. I always cringe when people start talking about preamps getting in the way. I find that moving up the price change improves the sound with all gear although there is some expensive gear that are duds.

bladesmith · « **Reply #52 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 07:34 pm »

Get a Wyred4sound DAC 2 (it has a volume control) and a nice tube Buffer, hook that to your amp. Clean and quiet, with some tube flavor added.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #53 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 07:42 pm »

Another DAC to consider is the NAD M12

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_745M12/NAD-Masters-Series-M12.html?tp=181&awkw=82501798105&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=52095131425&awdv=c

Stercom · « **Reply #54 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 07:47 pm »

If I were in the market for a DAC w/ volume control I'd go with Vinnie Rossi's new LIO modular system. Configured with his DAC and RVC/Tube stage volume control its right at $3,500. If you can spend a little more money I'm sure Vinnie's Autoformer Volume Control option (designed by John Chapman of Bent Audio and David Slagle of Intact Audio) would be excellent. Since the LIO is modular you can add features like a power amp, headphone amp and phono stage later if you wanted.

ernest787 · « **Reply #55 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 08:03 pm »

Quote from: bladesmith on 3 Apr 2015, 07:34 pm

Get a Wyred4sound DAC 2 (it has a volume control) and a nice tube Buffer, hook that to your amp. Clean and quiet, with some tube flavor added.

I just bought oen of these recently and am in awe of the sound. My digital music has never sounded better. I have it running through my ARC Preamp and it's fantastic.

vonnie123 · « **Reply #56 on:** 3 Apr 2015, 08:42 pm »

Quote from: ernest787 on 3 Apr 2015, 08:03 pm

I just bought oen of these recently and am in awe of the sound. My digital music has never sounded better. I have it running through my ARC Preamp and it's fantastic.

+1

I just got my four year old base level DAC-2 back from Wyred4Sound with the femto clock upgrade. I have an Audio Horizons Tube buffer between the DAC and the integrated amp and AVR. I'm extremely happy with the combo....

mav52 · « **Reply #57 on:** 4 Apr 2015, 12:28 pm »

Quote from: bladesmith on 3 Apr 2015, 07:34 pm

Get a Wyred4sound DAC 2 (it has a volume control) and a nice tube Buffer, hook that to your amp. Clean and quiet, with some tube flavor added.

Can't go wrong with a W4S dac

roscoeiii · « **Reply #58 on:** 6 Apr 2015, 11:44 am »

You're not going to go wrong with any of these suggestions most likely. I do think if I hadn't committed to the DEQX approach, I'd check out the LIO. But the info above about the Aurilec analog output stage is compelling. I tried the W4S DAC2 in my system and preferred the sound with my kW preamp in the chain. As I had with passive preamps, I felt that the impact and dynamics were diminished. Tho it should be noted that those are a particular strength of that pre (due to its super burly power supply?).

And yes, system gain in the matching of components will also be key here, as in any system.

JLM · « **Reply #59 on:** 6 Apr 2015, 03:37 pm »

As I've already invested in the MacBook Air with the idea of using it for the audio system, I'll bypass the server. And after some more research and soul searching I've decided to scale down my budget to $2000 for a DAC/pre-amp/headphone-amp that could also be used for desktop use. I'm focusing on:

Benchmark DAC-2 HCG (this gold standard for this equipment category)

BMC PureDAC (emotionally satisfying but it's big for desktop use)

Grace m920 (another very professional piece)

Hegel HD 12 (serious sound, minimal features)

Mytek 192 (professional, but requires firewire connection for firmware updates)

NuPrime DAC-10H (promising but no professional reviews and almost no reviews period available)

Oppo HA-1 (well reviewed, lots of features)