[audiotom]

I have a room that is 14 1/2 by 27. 8 ft ceiling - berber carpet on slab.

 My speakers are along the long wall, 3 feet out, 8 ft equa distant in a near field Cardas setup.  I wish the room was 2 feet deeper

My system used to sound very natural
I upgraded amps, speakers and did room treatments in preparation for the new gear

Finding just the right amp / speaker synergy has been a quest

The room had a slap echo that I previosly tamed with 5 Echo Buster panels behing the listener 1/2 foot on the back wall. 

I did a consultation with Real Traps and it was scary the amount of excess room energy once the sound treatments were completed.  They did a great job suggesting treatments for my room

I have a sketch of the room and treatments at my office I will add tomorrow.
There is a partial cut out around my couch.  I have switched out the wall behind me to diffraction panels, the four corners have corner mondo bass traps. I have absorption panels for the first point ceiling reflections. The side walls are too far away for first reflection issues but have bookcases full of books and albums. No treatments behind the soeakers - windows and artwork constrained.

Here is my issue.  When music is dynamic my equipment sounds like it has an emphasis on the treble at the expense of the midrange.

I have chosen neutral sounding speakers, cables, amps.
Now I'm wondering if I haven't overdone my room treatments.

Music without a lot of high impact dynamic treble - think Norah Jones, Nick Drake, Bill Evans - sounds fabulous. Great tonality, a you are there sound.  Harder music sounds a little edgy and this is on a pristine vinyl rig and Audio Research CD 9 cd player. Doshi pre and mono blocks. Various cables,   Several pairs of speakers and amps.  Lower volumes are better but 95 db things get shriller. Imaging is to die for, it's tonality in the top end or supression in the midrange that is the issue

I've went from a low efficiency 84 db speakers with 300 watt hybrid high watt setup, to a 97 db sensitivity 80 watt tube synergy.
It is really coming together

The sounds is more refined but still has frequency issues.
I've tried so many things. Hence the note to consider the treatment factor.

The music sounds more natural in the next room

Would it be worth taking elements of the treatments out of the equation?
Go back to absorption instead of diffusion behind my head?

Sounds like I need to touch base with the sound consultants for advice.
Tom

[Tyson]

97db - horns or OB, by chance?  Seems like you might just be sitting too close to your speakers.  Try moving them a foot back, and your listening seat a foot back as well.

[bwaslo]

Do you mean that the diffuser is only 1/2 ft behind you?  If so, that's too close.  For most diffusers I've read about the minimum is somewhere between 4 and 8 feet.  Up that close it might just be acting like a comb filter.

[Big Red Machine]

Rotate your room. Dealing with narrower room and side reflections is easier than the build up sitting on the short didtance.

[InfernoSTi]

Rotate your room. Dealing with narrower room and side reflections is easier than the build up sitting on the short didtance.

+1

[Hipper]

You are operating in the dark. What you need are some measurements to inform your decisions.

Simply, you could use your ears and test tones and roughly hear why the sound is 'wrong'. Or more accurately you could use the free software REW:

http://www.roomeqwizard.com/

Difficult to learn and requires other bits and pieces (a microphone for example) but well worth the effort in the long run.

Take a measurement, move things around, take another measurement etc.. I aimed for a flat response throughout the frequency range.

Another thought. Are you really listening at 95dB? 95dB at your ears? I understand that is ear damaging loud over time:

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

At 95dB there may be other factors. If 95dB is the average level there will be peaks that are higher. Can your speakers cope with this? Can your ears? Some music does naturally have a 'shrill' to it. This 'shrill' may be in a spot your ears are sensitive to, perhaps where you have ear damage.

[audiotom]

thanks everyone for the insightful replies

actually the speakers are 9 foot away

the long wall is ideal regarding windows, artwork, furniture location, flow into the other room, ability to treat the room

I have had great results on the long wall.

A number of factors

The room has sounded VERY NICE - prior to treatments and equipment upgrades
The long wall worked great

less 'demanding' music on the top end sounds fabulous through a number of equipment setups

I usually listen in the 85 db range but sometimes high 90s peaks (dbs from phone apps and rat shack meter)

I live in New Orleans - play music, my son is a musician and I see tons of live music
I know what brass sounds like.  This isn't on brass music that I am mentioning.
Cymbals tend to sound broken up, not authoritative, where as they did before

I went from a low db sensitivity speaker to an even lower one (two different hybrid mosfet amps), now I have a high sensitivity speaker - smaller tube amp

The sound is getting closer to ideal with the latest equipment paring but there is still a slight edge to it.
My previous speakers - are not testing bright at the manufacturers site.
That's what has me thinking too much midrange room treatment
with that attenuated - the high end is off, affecting the tonality

The new speakers Daedalus Ulysses are known to be revealing, natural, not bright. All my equipment is along the same lines and "calmer music" is dead on tonally and image wise.

I think you might be on to something on the diffusors, they also tamed the slap echo
I can put the old echobusters back up or hang the diffusion on the wall - they are on stands a foot out from the wall and 1 1/2 foot behind me.

I have an Omni V2 Mic system with software where I have done nearfield measurements on the speakers

Suggestions on measurements to take, treatment pieces to remove and test, etc would be welcome

Thank you

Tom



room dimensions and furniture



room with treatments  (front left is actually corner mondo - hung to ceiling - see photo below)



side view (old and new speakers)





I'll take a few shots of the backwall etc.

[maplegrovemusic]

from memory Glenn at GkI has stated in the past that absorption behind the listener is the way to go . I remember him on Gearslutz talking about five feet of absorption behind the listener is ideal (for a professional studio)

[audiotom]

 

I don't have 5 ft to play with, more like 2ft, but the echobusters seemed to work there

they removed the slap echo

that's an easy trial and I still held on to them, thank God

[Tyson]

I actually find the Ulysses to be have a bit too much in the highs.  It's hard to describe - they are not 'bright' in the conventional sense, but they have a lot of treble energy, if that makes sense.  IMO, the Athena is the superstar of the Daedalus lineup - perfectly balanced from top to bottom and musicality to die for.  All the Daedalus dual tweeter designs suffer from the same issues as the Ulysses - just a bit too much top end energy. 

[maplegrovemusic]

I do not think anyone in the home environment has five feet . Purpose built studios do though . It is pretty amazing the thought and amount of materials they use for rooms. So much money invested behind the walls too .I would just suggest move treatments around . Move some out of the room .I have tried every possible equation with mine . More than once too . Trial and error .

[maplegrovemusic]

yes , Treble volume is probably what you are hearing . Does not have to be bright but if the volume is not relative to other drivers might be culprit .

[fwinston]

Two questions:

1.  Are you speakers brand new?  If so, you may want to ask Lou Hinkley at Daedalus how long is typically required for break-in.  If they are not fully broken in that might explain the sound you're hearing.

2.  It looks like your equipment rack is positioned almost at the front plane of the speakers.  I wonder if you may be getting some reflections off the equipment/rack.  Are you able to relocate the equipment rack?  Or, perhaps pull the speakers out into the room a bit more?

[Tyson]

Two questions:

1.  Are you speakers brand new?  If so, you may want to ask Lou Hinkley at Daedalus how long is typically required for break-in.  If they are not fully broken in that might explain the sound you're hearing.

2.  It looks like your equipment rack is positioned almost at the front plane of the speakers.  I wonder if you may be getting some reflections off the equipment/rack.  Are you able to relocate the equipment rack?  Or, perhaps pull the speakers out into the room a bit more?

Yes, these are both very true.  Try to switch to a low/wide rack.  Keep everything between the speakers as low to the ground as possible. 

[AKLegal]

You are operating in the dark. What you need are some measurements to inform your decisions.

Simply, you could use your ears and test tones and roughly hear why the sound is 'wrong'. Or more accurately you could use the free software REW:

http://www.roomeqwizard.com/

Difficult to learn and requires other bits and pieces (a microphone for example) but well worth the effort in the long run.

Take a measurement, move things around, take another measurement etc.. I aimed for a flat response throughout the frequency range.

Yeah, the OP needs to do this for his own sanity anyway.  At the very least get a headphone set up so you can hear the music without room interactions.  Using REW is way better though. 

OP, your system might be measuring flat or close to it right now and you are now finding faults in the actual recordings.  This could especially be true since you have a treated room and you say some recordings sound great while others don't.

REW is hard to learn but GIK has some videos on youtube showing you how to set it up.  Once you learn it and use it you won't ever want to set your system up without it.

[rollo]

I have a room that is 14 1/2 by 27. 8 ft ceiling - berber carpet on slab.

 My speakers are along the long wall, 3 feet out, 8 ft equa distant in a near field Cardas setup.  I wish the room was 2 feet deeper

My system used to sound very natural
I upgraded amps, speakers and did room treatments in preparation for the new gear

Finding just the right amp / speaker synergy has been a quest

The room had a slap echo that I previosly tamed with 5 Echo Buster panels behing the listener 1/2 foot on the back wall. 

I did a consultation with Real Traps and it was scary the amount of excess room energy once the sound treatments were completed.  They did a great job suggesting treatments for my room

I have a sketch of the room and treatments at my office I will add tomorrow.
There is a partial cut out around my couch.  I have switched out the wall behind me to diffraction panels, the four corners have corner mondo bass traps. I have absorption panels for the first point ceiling reflections. The side walls are too far away for first reflection issues but have bookcases full of books and albums. No treatments behind the soeakers - windows and artwork constrained.

Here is my issue.  When music is dynamic my equipment sounds like it has an emphasis on the treble at the expense of the midrange.

I have chosen neutral sounding speakers, cables, amps.
Now I'm wondering if I haven't overdone my room treatments.

Music without a lot of high impact dynamic treble - think Norah Jones, Nick Drake, Bill Evans - sounds fabulous. Great tonality, a you are there sound.  Harder music sounds a little edgy and this is on a pristine vinyl rig and Audio Research CD 9 cd player. Doshi pre and mono blocks. Various cables,   Several pairs of speakers and amps.  Lower volumes are better but 95 db things get shriller. Imaging is to die for, it's tonality in the top end or supression in the midrange that is the issue

I've went from a low efficiency 84 db speakers with 300 watt hybrid high watt setup, to a 97 db sensitivity 80 watt tube synergy.
It is really coming together

The sounds is more refined but still has frequency issues.
I've tried so many things. Hence the note to consider the treatment factor.

The music sounds more natural in the next room

Would it be worth taking elements of the treatments out of the equation?
Go back to absorption instead of diffusion behind my head?

Sounds like I need to touch base with the sound consultants for advice.
Tom

   Are the new components fully broken in ? Not getting a linear presentation just could be break-in. Have you experimented with speaker placement and toe in ? Or it just could be the source as your new gear is neutral.
    You can try removing one treatment at a time to hear if there is an issue there. good luck.  Try putting a chair directly in front of the couch and listen. The couch location against the wall may have some influence on your issue. Give it a try.


charles

[audiotom]

thanks guys

I do not think anyone in the home environment has five feet . Purpose built studios do though . It is pretty amazing the thought and amount of materials they use for rooms. So much money invested behind the walls too .I would just suggest move treatments around . Move some out of the room .I have tried every possible equation with mine . More than once too . Trial and error .

yes - who has 5 ' - a large fit for purpose room perhaps

I actually find the Ulysses to be have a bit too much in the highs.  It's hard to describe - they are not 'bright' in the conventional sense, but they have a lot of treble energy, if that makes sense.  IMO, the Athena is the superstar of the Daedalus lineup - perfectly balanced from top to bottom and musicality to die for.  All the Daedalus dual tweeter designs suffer from the same issues as the Ulysses - just a bit too much top end energy. 

I've had two speakers that are neutral in the system - this is more than the signature sound of the speaker

yes , Treble volume is probably what you are hearing . Does not have to be bright but if the volume is not relative to other drivers might be culprit .

 and I think the room treatments may have sucked out the lower mid making the high end appear bright

Two questions:

1.  Are you speakers brand new?  If so, you may want to ask Lou Hinkley at Daedalus how long is typically required for break-in.  If they are not fully broken in that might explain the sound you're hearing.

2.  It looks like your equipment rack is positioned almost at the front plane of the speakers.  I wonder if you may be getting some reflections off the equipment/rack.  Are you able to relocate the equipment rack?  Or, perhaps pull the speakers out into the room a bit more?

The speakers are second hand but Lou did the V2 upgrade on them (replaced wiring and cross overs, etc) 2 months ago. Well over the 400 hour break in - which I heard.
My past speakers had RAAL ribbon tweeters and had similar issues although they sounded full bodied at RMAF

The rack is back 5 inches from the speaker fronts - it has large open sides to it.
The room has sounded great with the rack right where it is.

Yeah, the OP needs to do this for his own sanity anyway.  At the very least get a headphone set up so you can hear the music without room interactions.  Using REW is way better though. 

OP, your system might be measuring flat or close to it right now and you are now finding faults in the actual recordings.  This could especially be true since you have a treated room and you say some recordings sound great while others don't.

REW is hard to learn but GIK has some videos on youtube showing you how to set it up.  Once you learn it and use it you won't ever want to set your system up without it.

I have Sennheizer HD 600s I use in a recording setup elsewhere but no headphone output in my system.  Maybe I could borrow a simple output coming off the amps. 

I have a very refined system and am well aware of source materials shortcomings - bright, etched - "loudness wars', clipping, etc.
I am 80% vinyl and 20% cd and even kept a more forgiving Audio Research CD2 to play bright cds.

what is REW?

thanks for the reference

   Are the new components fully broken in ? Not getting a linear presentation just could be break-in. Have you experimented with speaker placement and toe in ? Or it just could be the source as your new gear is neutral.
    You can try removing one treatment at a time to hear if there is an issue there. good luck.  Try putting a chair directly in front of the couch and listen. The couch location against the wall may have some influence on your issue. Give it a try.

charles

the components are all broken in.  The speakers had new caps in them but have 400 hrs on those
I have played with placement - more in the past - but the same spot dialed in this time too
The imaging is holographic - it's the tonality that is the issue.

I like the removing the treatment idea
I think the diffusion 6 " behind my head is first to go

Charles, the couch is out from the wall 2 feet. I used the exact method you mentioned to bring it out into the room for best sonics.

The cutaway to the right of the couch constrains me a little.

the diffusion panels are between it and the wall, they can be mounted on the wall, but I used stands instead

thank you all so much

[Tyson]

Try putting the diffuser in the front of the room and an absorber behind your couch.

[Tyson]

Also, it's possible that something in your system is reversing phase upstream of the speakers.  Try inverting the polarity of the speaker wire at the speaker terminals and see if that helps.

[Voncarlos]

what is REW?

REW is room acoustics analysis software for measuring and analysing room and loudspeaker responses. And it's FREE !!!
http://www.roomeqwizard.com/