[rollo]

  OK cool all is broken-in now that culprit is eliminated. The speakers just could be revealing another component. Tyson may be on to something. Check all your connections ya never know. Sometimes a recessed midrange is a cause of to much bass muddleing it up and makig the top end come forward and taking over.
  After the removal of treatments one at a time until all gone measure the room. Then as you reinsert the treatments measure again. My educated guess would be either cabling or source now exposed by the changes to your system.


charles

[jriggy]

Recently, after moving some gear around and rerunning cables, like a bone head, I put my ICs in running backwards. It screwed with the sound for sure! So check that as well Tom.
Good luck and I hope you can get things singing soon.

[rollo]

Recently, after moving some gear around and rerunning cables, like a bone head, I put my ICs in running backwards. It screwed with the sound for sure! So check that as well Tom.
Good luck and I hope you can get things singing soon.

   Me as well and I'm the system set up guy Shit happens.

charles

[audiotom]

I took the 3 diffusion panels off the back wall.

It made a big difference, wow

The highs didnt sound as etched and the mid range is more full bodied.

There is one absorption panel that was hung horizontal on the wall  partially behind the diffusers

I clapped my hands - no big slap echo but probably a just a tad too absorptive

Think I'll live with this a few days

Make some measurements

Consider putting some absortion back in on the back wall or removing it from one of the corners

Any suggestions?

Thanks

[Daedalus Audio]

hi Tom,
Many good comments here.  I recall a picture of your room and a window behind the speakers? That in itself can be very problematic in just the ways you mention. I usually like to start with no or minimal treatment and add one piece at a time, often I will start with a sound panel center of front wall between the speakers. I have found that can be more beneficial than even first reflection etc. 

Another odd thing is sometimes a small glass object can cause problems... once doing a show in the UK we were dialing in a room and had the hardest time, finally we found the culprit a glass faced 12" wall clock and a glass ceiling light. go figure? 
Don't forget the ceiling, that is the largest reflective surface in the room and particularly affects the upper midrange, even a ceiling fixture can make a difference.

You mention all is good with less 'aggressive' music and at lower volumes, from what I know you have many changes in the gear and all for the good so that you are possibly listening at a higher volume level than before as the system is more clear at higher volumes, but the level at which the room will overload is still the same.

Anyhow sounds like you are on the right track with changing the room treatment, if possible look at that space behind your equipment rack though.

[Daedalus Audio]

I actually find the Ulysses to be have a bit too much in the highs.  It's hard to describe - they are not 'bright' in the conventional sense, but they have a lot of treble energy, if that makes sense.  IMO, the Athena is the superstar of the Daedalus lineup - perfectly balanced from top to bottom and musicality to die for.  All the Daedalus dual tweeter designs suffer from the same issues as the Ulysses - just a bit too much top end energy.

ah Tyson, you are just such a sensitive young fellow   
actually if you were to hear the two speakers in the same room with the same gear you may not say the Ulysses has too much top end. (there is that tweeter level switch on these that can adjust thye issue if you feel they are too bright)
Also the highs have changed considerably with the V.2 since you last heard them
Come on up for a visit, eh?

[guf]

geeze.
I'm looking at your gear, your past gear, your set up, your treatments,  and I bet it sounds incredible. Probably better than 99.95% of the systems out there, or at least for my taste. Maybe go listen to some other systems and come back to appreciate how the many strengths of your system really out weigh the weakness.

[audiotom]

I see Lou has joined us, thanks

funny but after the panel removal, I actually ended up after a few lp sides, turning the tweeter attenuation switch from - 1 db to 0.

The room has sounded natural before the massive treatment approach

that included the windows and a Wurlitzer jukebox in the far corner

The artwork between the speakers is canvas

an ideal spot for absorption would be the front wall between the windows

Considering GIK artwork panels

yes there is a fine balance between turning up the system for details and exciting the room
The Daedalus being much more efficient don't rely on as much power and can do dramatic volume swings efficiently and lifelike

geeze.
I'm looking at your gear, your past gear, your set up, your treatments,  and I bet it sounds incredible. Probably better than 99.95% of the systems out there, or at least for my taste. Maybe go listen to some other systems and come back to appreciate how the many strengths of your system really out weigh the weakness.

thank you, it's been a labor of love

were you looking at my Audiogon system listing? I don't think I have it mentioned on Audio Circle

When the system is right, it is so right - great imaging, separation of instruments, air, etc
the tonality issue hopefully is something that the right combination or treatments or removal could cure

here is the front wall - I have a few pieces of gear in the corner right now and I've went from Atmasphere MA1's to Doshi mono blocks since the photo was taken





here is the back wall after I removed the 3 Real Traps diffraction panels behind the couch
Why didn't I photograph it first - doh!
I used to have 4 vertical red Real Traps in that position and it sounded good and I will probably try that next
after pulling the mondo corner bass trap from the back wall corner (just to the right of the photo)



excuse the mess

I just got another shipment of UK original lps in

[InfernoSTi]

I have found that one should be 1 foot away from a diffusor for every inch of depth it has.  I also have found that it is useful to try diffusors in various places around the room (some of which are not standard) just to hear the differences.  Absorption behind you and diffusion in front sounds good as a general rule.

John

[bwaslo]

Yes, being too close to a diffuser can be worse than not having one.

I don't know if it would be lifestyle acceptable, but moving the couch away from the back wall would probably help a lot.  Right against a wall is an awful place for a listening position usually.  You'd probably have to move speakers closer together, but it might be worth while trying if only temporarily with the seat 4 ft or more from the back.

[audiotom]

thanks guys

I removed the 3 diffusers and stuck three of the burgundy echobusters - vertically over the couch

it sounds much better

someone mentioned the diffusors might be acting like a comb filter that close to the listening position

The diffusors are 5 inches deep but about two inches of depth into the max "recesses" of the front face

before with the diffusers the mids seemed lacking and the top too hot (or perhaps just an imbalance between the two)

I only have 18" to play with on my sofa to wall distance unfortunately  (my biggest drawback of my room)

not sure if I have any other spots to try the diffusers in without ruing the aesthetics of my room

Tom

[jk@home]

Do you have absorber panels at all the first reflection points? That would include on the front wall, and behind the couch (especially since you sit so close to the rear wall). You want them at the mirror reflection point of your speakers. So place a mirror up against the wall behind you, sit down and turn around. Where you see the speakers are where the panels should go...not high up on the wall.

I think the rule of thumb with diffusers is 8'-10' away from the listener. The only place I have a pair is on the front wall, at the first reflect points. About 10'-11' away. But the speakers are monopole, so not a lot of energy hitting the QRDs.

I would try to damper the windows better, thicker curtains, etc. In my case, I have windows on one sidewall, so I use a double layer of cellular shades (one inside the window frame and a larger one over it on the outside). And then a fairly heavy valance curtain on top, and floor mounted absorber in front of that.

And I would get the rack lower or relocated. Most room treatment advice is to place the panels 18"-24" off the ground. So the inverse of that is to keep the racks below that same height.
 

[audiotom]

jk@home,

thanks for the advice

I have first refection absorption on the ceiling, Real Traps Mondo Bass traps in the corners (low and high freq).

My room is 14 1/2 by 27 and the side reflection points are so far away
There are bookcases with albums and art books in those

I room has sounded very nice and the diffusion behind my head really threw it off

I have pull down thin coverings (like a projector screen) for my windows but I never use them.  Perhaps something thicker for nighttime listening sessions.  I like the daylight too much

the rack is staying   
it is a Silent Running Audio Craz rack - it has an open frame The rack is offset 1 ft back from the drivers

[jhrlrd]

to the OP, no, In my experience a heavily damped room will make the highs sound rolled off, not shrill.
You may notice a roll-off in the midrange if your absorption focuses on that range, That's why you need different thickness panels for different ranges.
I don't get flustered about the highs seeming rolled off as I will still hear the highs if they are there to begin with, coming straight from the tweeter.
Also, if I use some silver cables or something notorious for high frequency sparkle, i don't have to worry about tizzyness.
Another thing I've noticed is it seems to take alot of power to get it to sound loud. Probably from the energy suck-out.
I have a very damped room, I like it that way, because I only want to hear the first-fire of the speakers.
In my experience, I've never heard an over-damped room, although it might exist.
I've always preferred damping to a bare wall.
I believe if you damp behind you, between the speakers, and at first reflection that would be a good start. Maybe then adding some to the ceiling, then diffusers on other walls. 

[audiotom]

thanks

when I took out the diffractors immediately behind me and put more echo busters back in the tonality jelled

[Hipper]

QRD Diffusors - images of what they do. See video at bottom of page, around 0.43:

http://www.npl.co.uk/commercial-services/sectors/advanced-manufacturing/laser-based-acousto-optic-mapping

[audiotom]

very enlightening video, thanks

and if that spurious zone is immediately behind your head I imagine it can't be good

a little farther out - acts more like one waveform