[maxkoz]

Hi everyone, I am trying to figure out how to get better sound out of my speakers.

I have a Denon 4311 powering them, and I don't play them too loud. From what I have read it doesn't look like I need more watts, so what do I need? I like clean undistorted warm/bassy sound.

Room is well treated, speakers as well placed as they can be, dvd audio content.

I was thinking of 3 channel amp for the front 3 buying something used for around 1k

I appreciate your thoughts and comments.

[Austin08]

Can you be more specific of how they sound in your house? Look like you want more/better bass? Imo, HT recievers rarely perform well in 2 channel stereo. I found most of them lack of depth and lifeless compare to true 2 channel preamps. if you only want better/more bass then I recomemded you to ad one or two good subs. At your budget, it would not be a hard thing to do.

[Big Red Machine]

HT receivers SUCK at high fidelity.  Doesn't exist.  You need a better preamp AND better amps both, sorry to say.  The ST's are super fine speakers but all Salk speakers give back what you give them.  Feed them high fidelity and you get back high fidelity.

You will have to spend more than $1k to make this happen.  Start with the preamp first, not the amp.

[sfox7076]

I don't think you need to spend more than $1,000 if you go used.  Get an LDR pre-amp used and then think about amps.

[maplegrovemusic]

Absolutely get new amps first . A good amp will make the biggest improvement in the bass . A class A amp will move air the best . Second would be class D .

[Big Red Machine]

Absolutely get new amps first . A good amp will make the biggest improvement in the bass . A class A amp will move air the best . Second would be class D .

Not with the preamp section of that processor.  You won't get what the amps are capable of providing w/o a good front end - source, preamp, amp, power conditioning, cables

[S Clark]

I'm with BRM.  Preamp first, then amp. 

[Vulcan00]

I am not sure exactly what sound characteristic is lacking, but I have actual experience with my HT2-TL speakers:

1. First driving with 135 amp/ ch  Onko receiver,  not bad sound
2. Added A51 Parasound power amp, about twice the power, Still using best setting on receiver for Preamp,  much better in all senses.
3. Added P7 Parasound Preamp, just no comparison to #1 and #2
4. Added Ultra Valve preamp and I switch between my two preamp, very nice!

Hope this might provided insight.
Harrison

PS. I have treated room and measuring equipment , plus I have a sub to use if I want.

[Gzerro]

Since you specifically mention DVD-A as your primary content, you need to stay multi-channel which is going to limit your options.

If you were looking for stereo digital and/or vinyl you have many more options.

My suggestions in order:

1) You mention you like clean undistorted warm bass so my first suggestion would be two or more subs. Salk makes beautiful sealed servo subs and can customize for you to match your space/finish. If you want to save money you may want to look at getting something directly from Rythmik/SVS/Hsu etc. You need to spend some time setting them up properly. Your 4311 will do a great job on the bass management, but proper placement is still critical.

2) Use the pre-outs from your 4311 to go to a better amp. Parasound A51 Vulcan mentions is a great choice (I use the Parasound A52 which I bought used for well under $1k that was a noticeable upgrade from the 4311 internal amps), but there are many other good options.

3) If you want to completely bypass the Denon (not a bad idea), consider an Oppo 105 and use the analog outs to a better multi-channel preamp such as the Parasound P7. You can also use the Oppo 105 as your pre-amp and go directly to an amplifier if there are enough inputs for your various sources.

4) For a lot more money you could look at one of the boutique AVR/Processors to replace the Denon. Maybe a Marantz 8801 pre/pro or something from Krell or someone like that.
 

[Big Red Machine]

Maybe a Marantz 8801 pre/pro or something from Krell or someone like that.

Skip the Marantz.  Poor dacs in it and tinny sound comparatively.  You 'd be going from mediocre to mediocre.  Don't know how the Krells sound.

Just get with DEP14, he's been down this path already and once he dumped his crummy prepro he saw (heard) much improved in sound quality.

[maplegrovemusic]

Why will his Denon not work as a pre for now ? I used one for six months with a pair of proac response 2.5's and a class A Gary Dodd amp . The bass improved night and day with the amp being added. It was actually a killer sounding system . Low volume bass articulation up the wazoo . All from the Dodd amp . I have used $60 volume contollers also in a hifi rig ? Not expensive enough for you ? Think some people need to hear more variables in ones system .

[maplegrovemusic]

The amps in a receiver are now where close to a separate $1k amp . Much bigger difference between the amp  v.s. pre section in a $1k pre and the Denon receiver

[maplegrovemusic]

Skip the Marantz.  Poor dacs in it and tinny sound comparatively.  You 'd be going from mediocre to mediocre.  Don't know how the Krells sound

I have never heard such a blatant misinformed statement . No qualifiers "to my ears"  or "to Me" sounds like words of absolute ? Please !

[martyo]

Think some people need to hear more variables in ones system .

That's a hilarious statement when talking about BRM! 

[gregcss]

So OP would use a new preamp into the 4311 for amplification? Some HT receivers send incoming analog signals through it's digital circuitry, if there is a pure direct mode then maybe not.

[maplegrovemusic]

I have never owned a receiver where you could use its amps with a different pre . You typically can use the pre-outs into separate amps . Let's not forget he has a 1 k budget and mainly wants better bass. So if he goes the way of "upgrading the pre" , he still needs to buy amps. Not going to happen for 1k.

Anyone agree certain amps bring out the bass ? Krells for example ? Am i going crazy here ?

[TJHUB]

My vote would be to add dual subs.  The ST's are really great speakers, but physics is physics.  Four 5" drivers are not going to get things done.  In my experience, the TL alignment gives an illusion of good bass by accenting the lower frequencies.  What they typically lack is midbass, which can make them sound a bit thin (or lacking a full sound).  Proper setup is key, and it's VERY tough.  You say your speakers are "as well placed as they can be."  That tells me they can't be ideally placed, which is almost always the case.  Properly placed, and EQ'd subs can be magical, and likely what you need.  You have the receiver for bass management, so subs is what I'd do first.

The second benefit to subs is offloading the low frequency bass content from the ST's will clear up the midrange considerably.  Again, physics come into play here.  Asking those (4) 5" drivers to play clean midrange AND play the lowest octaves increases distortion to a very audible level.

If you decide to go with an amp, fine.  Just realize that it is a stepping stone to needing a good preamp, and likely one like the P7 mentioned for multichannel content.  If you are looking for 2-channel performance, that's another story.  Then I would get an amp only for the front left and right channels.  Leave the center channel and surrounds for the receiver to drive.  Then a nice 2-channel preamp with HT-bypass is the way to go.

I'm also in the camp that receivers are absolutely the worst for sound quality.  Even feeding my $2,000.00 Onkyo receiver with the best source and DAC I've ever had gives me a sound I personally find unlistenable.  Of course you have to factor in that I'm now spoiled.  A receiver can sound fine as long as you havent heard better.  Once you do, your screwed.

None of the above addresses the source.  That is yet another significant factor.  But as stated above, I wouldn't want a great source feeding a receiver as it's likely a waste. 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Vulcan00]

TJHUB nailed it

[Saturn94]

....The second benefit to subs is offloading the low frequency bass content from the ST's will clear up the midrange considerably.  Again, physics come into play here.  Asking those (4) 5" drivers to play clean midrange AND play the lowest octaves increases distortion to a very audible level.....

A big +1! 

I noticed this when paired my former HT2-TLs with a good sub.

[maxkoz]

Thanks guys!

I have a av123 MFW 15, and a $300 Cerwin Vega sub that I am considering recycling.

I do HT too, so I thought 3 channels would be useful, but for music I use Audio-DVD, CD, and (dont kill me), some MP3.

As you can see I am not very knowledgeable, but it seems like mid bass is what I need more of.  I think this is what gives the "fuller" sound?  Not that I couldn't be helped by a powerful sub, but don't know.

My room is 20 x 20 but the speakers are in a 10 x 20 area.  Have a Cross Beam that interferes with the Projector Screen and cant center it any better.

Behind the speakers and the screen the wall is covered by " Safe n Sound panels", and I am installing 703s on first reflection this weekend.

I am Screwed, I have heard better and want it!!! 

1k for now but would be happy to invest more over time.  In a way spending 4k on speakers and driving them with a $500 amp doesnt fully make sense.  On the other hand I have always read that most of the budget should go to speakers.  So... I am confused.

I Appreciate your comments!