Going old school...which GR speaker for my turntable setup?

grimace · « **on:** 27 Dec 2014, 07:59 pm »

Looking for some advice. Just pulled the trigger on a used Linn Axis turntable with Clearaudio Concept V2 MM cartridge. Am going to use my old Denon integrated amp (PMA-520) from mys first system in the mid-80s that has a phono stage. My room is 12'x13'x8'H. First off, any concerns with those two pieces of the system? Second, which GR speaker would people recommend?

My other room is bigger and I have the N3 TLs with the servo sub and have basically gone to all streaming music from Beats (old MOG) thru my AppleTV to my Decco integrated amp. Sound is good and convenience is off the chart. Just wanting to get back to the good old days and be little more connected to the experience and the music. Been 25 years since I've owned vinyl and a turntable though, so any help is much appreciated.

Wedge?
LGK?
Encore?
Others?

Thanks

mlundy57 · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Dec 2014, 03:09 am »

grimace,

From the specs I see on that amp (70wpc continuous into 8 ohms and 110wpc continuous into 4 ohms) it has enough power to drive any speaker you want. It's going to come down to what do you want out of the speakers.

The LGK 1.0's are going to be a little lean in a room that size. When I compared the LGK 1.0's to X-LS Encores in a room a little smaller than yours (11'x10'x8') the Encores did a much more satisfying job of filling the room. If you go with the new LGK Skinny 6 you won't have any problem with the LGK's loading the room.

If you like the sound of open baffle speakers, can get them at least 3' away from the wall behind them and have the budget for the Wedgies and at least one sub that can play up to 200Hz (two subs is better) then don't even bother reading the rest of my post, by all means, go with the Wedgies and sub(s). Once you get your jaw up off the floor you can settle in and enjoy the music.

If any of the above three criteria aren't for you then I'd suggest starting with your N3TL's with and without the servo sub and see what you think of the sound. If you want to go without a sub you will be happier with a floor stander like the N3TL, X-MTM Encore, etc. With a sub you have more options (e.g. N3S's, X-CS Encores, LGK Skinny 6's, floor standers, etc.)

To my ears, if the Encore crossover networks are built out the same way Danny's other kits are (don't use the stock Encore board at all), I can't really say one speaker (Neo3 series vs Encore series) is better than the other. Different yes, the Neo3 speakers are a little cleaner and more detailed while the Encores are a little more rounded/smoother. The terms lush and seductive come to mind when describing a tricked out Encore. But better than the other? That is going to depend on your personal tastes, the types of music you like to listen too, and the rest of your equipment.

Mike

Folsom · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Dec 2014, 03:14 am »

Mike, did P2P really make your encores sound better?

mlundy57 · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Dec 2014, 03:50 am »

Quote from: Salis Audio on 28 Dec 2014, 03:14 am

Mike, did P2P really make your encores sound better?

That, and also upgrading the inductors to Erse XQ's instead of the ones on the stock Encore board. When I built the Encore boards I used Sonicaps, Mills resistors, Erse XQ inductors, Sonicap Gen II by-pass caps on all the capacitors (both tweeter and woofer circuits) and P2P'd them with the wire Danny supplies, just like I did on my N1X's. That's what I meant by building out the Encore networks the same as the Neo3 networks, using the same quality level components on both networks.

Upgrading the stock Encore board with Sonicaps and Mills resistors produces a really good sounding speaker but taking it up that extra notch makes it sound even better and doesn't cost much more (as long as you're not counting the time it takes to build the boards).

Mike

Folsom · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Dec 2014, 03:53 am »

I've got all the upgrades Danny sells, but could P2P them, perhaps swap inductors.

BTW I think the Parrallel encores sweet listening would be nice with Vinyl.

grimace · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Dec 2014, 03:57 am »

Thanks Mike. Appreciate it. I've built a few sets of the X-LS Encores for gifts, but just stock as it comes in the kit. Never thought about 'upgrading them'. I have run them off the old Denon and they sounded great. The Wedgies look very neat and I've always been curious about OB. I will check and see if I can work the 3' spacing. If I went that direction, would the F12G servo sub be enough? I know you said I'd want at least one sub in the room.

- Matt

grimace · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Dec 2014, 03:58 am »

Quote from: Salis Audio on 28 Dec 2014, 03:53 am

I've got all the upgrades Danny sells, but could P2P them, perhaps swap inductors.

BTW I think the Parrallel encores sweet listening would be nice with Vinyl.

What's a parallel encore?

Folsom · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Dec 2014, 04:03 am »

A stupid phone correction.

grimace · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Dec 2014, 04:04 am »

Quote from: Salis Audio on 28 Dec 2014, 04:03 am

A stupid phone correction.

Hehe. Thought maybe you were stacking two pair or something...

mlundy57 · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Dec 2014, 05:03 am »

Quote from: grimace on 28 Dec 2014, 03:57 am

Thanks Mike. Appreciate it. I've built a few sets of the X-LS Encores for gifts, but just stock as it comes in the kit. Never thought about 'upgrading them'. I have run them off the old Denon and they sounded great. The Wedgies look very neat and I've always been curious about OB. I will check and see if I can work the 3' spacing. If I went that direction, would the F12G servo sub be enough? I know you said I'd want at least one sub in the room.

- Matt

Matt,

I forgot to mention in the previous post that I used the Electra tube connectors on the Encores also.

I don't know if the F12G can play all the way up to 200Hz.

While you can use a sealed or ported sub with the Wedgies, provided it can cross over high enough, to really match properly with them you need open baffle servo subs. You can use either the 8" SW-8-16FR OB drivers with HX300 amps or the 12" SW-12-08FR/SW-12-16FR OB drivers with the A370PEQ amps. There are plans for both "H" and "W" frame subs using dual 12" drivers on the GR-Research website. Links to the W and H frame plans are on the SW-12-16FR page. Danny is also working on a Wedgie specific sub design.

Two subs are best, one for each channel. The Wedgies could either sit on stands next to the subs or could sit on top of the subs with some sort of isolation between them. To put the costs into perspective, you can build a dual driver OB servo sub using two SW-12-08FR drivers and an A370PEQ amp for about the cost of an F12G. So cost would be similar but the sound would be much better with the OB sub(s).

Mike

grimace · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Dec 2014, 02:26 pm »

Quote from: mlundy57 on 28 Dec 2014, 05:03 am

Matt,

I forgot to mention in the previous post that I used the Electra tube connectors on the Encores also.

I don't know if the F12G can play all the way up to 200Hz.

While you can use a sealed or ported sub with the Wedgies, provided it can cross over high enough, to really match properly with them you need open baffle servo subs. You can use either the 8" SW-8-16FR OB drivers with HX300 amps or the 12" SW-12-08FR/SW-12-16FR OB drivers with the A370PEQ amps. There are plans for both "H" and "W" frame subs using dual 12" drivers on the GR-Research website. Links to the W and H frame plans are on the SW-12-16FR page. Danny is also working on a Wedgie specific sub design.

Two subs are best, one for each channel. The Wedgies could either sit on stands next to the subs or could sit on top of the subs with some sort of isolation between them. To put the costs into perspective, you can build a dual driver OB servo sub using two SW-12-08FR drivers and an A370PEQ amp for about the cost of an F12G. So cost would be similar but the sound would be much better with the OB sub(s).

Mike

Thanks Mike. That's very helpful.

Danny, any update on the sub design for the Wedgies? Is this 'best speaker stand' ever' http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=129161.0 it?

corndog71 · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Dec 2014, 12:54 am »

Since you don't have preamp outs on that amp, I would recommend a tower such as the N3TL or X-SLS or maybe even a pair of X-CS on isoacoustic stands.

You lose a small amount of resolution dropping from the N3 to the Encore but the X-series are still great speakers for the money.

grimace · « **Reply #12 on:** 29 Dec 2014, 02:11 am »

Quote from: corndog71 on 29 Dec 2014, 12:54 am

Since you don't have preamp outs on that amp, I would recommend a tower such as the N3TL or X-SLS or maybe even a pair of X-CS on isoacoustic stands.

You lose a small amount of resolution dropping from the N3 to the Encore but the X-series are still great speakers for the money.

Thanks - sorry to be clueless, but does not having the pre outs mean I can't go the OB route?

mlundy57 · « **Reply #13 on:** 29 Dec 2014, 03:33 am »

Quote from: grimace on 29 Dec 2014, 02:11 am

Thanks - sorry to be clueless, but does not having the pre outs mean I can't go the OB route?

You could still go the OB route. You would have two sets of speaker wires connected to the speaker terminals of the amp. One set for each channel would go to the Wedgies and the other set would go to the high level inputs on the sub(s)' plate amps. This is the way I had mine hooked up until I got a new preamp with two sets of outputs.

The problem you run into without pre-outs is that you cannot use inline capacitors as high pass filters for the Wedgies. It doesn't mean the Wedgies won't work without the inline filter, they will. I don't have the filters built for mine yet and my Wedgies work fine with the sub. If I understand correctly, the purpose of the filter is keep the Wedgies from having to work as hard as they would without the filter which in turn would allow them to play louder with less distortion. Since my Wedgies play way louder than I care to listen as they are, I'm not sure how much I'd gain with the filter anyway.

By the way, using the speaker terminals to feed both the Wedgies and the subwoofer plate amp(s) via the high level inputs will work with any type of speaker/sub combination, not just OB.

Mike

Captainhemo · « **Reply #14 on:** 29 Dec 2014, 04:09 am »

Quote from: mlundy57 on 29 Dec 2014, 03:33 am

. If I understand correctly, the purpose of the filter is keep the Wedgies from having to work as hard as they would without the filter which in turn would allow them to play louder with less distortion. Since my Wedgies play way louder than I care to listen as they are, I'm not sure how much I'd gain with the filter anyway.

As Mike says above, I think you'd be fine at lowe/moderate levels. Trying to play those lower frequencies at louder levels on the wedgies, may cause destortion. I really can't see this being an issue in a small room like you originally mention though.
Also , by high passing only the frequencies youwant the wedgies to play (say above 175hz-200hz), you're going to take a lot of load off the amp driving them so again, you'd be getting a cleaner signal to the wedgies, there fore cleaner from the wedgies..

Quote

By the way, using the speaker terminals to feed both the Wedgies and the subwoofer plate amp(s) via the high level inputs will work with any type of speaker/sub combination, not just OB.

Mike

I know this is stating the obviouis but that's assuming the plate amp(s) have high level inputs, I'm sure there are still a few out there that don't.

-jay

mlundy57 · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Dec 2014, 05:23 am »

I've had my Wedgies hitting 102 dB at 3 meters without the inline filter and it didn't phase the drivers. My ears were a different story

Mike

Captainhemo · « **Reply #16 on:** 29 Dec 2014, 09:28 am »

I guess, I probabably wrote that in the wrong way, I'll edit it.
I was really just trying to say that by rolling off the signal at the bttom, these could be driven a lot harder in a bigger room without any worries. Less work for the amp is a good thing too

-jay

grimace · « **Reply #17 on:** 29 Dec 2014, 01:19 pm »

Ok. Thanks for the explanations. That makes sense. I don't know what it is about that older Denon but it can drive very well. Seems more powerful than many 100w amps I've had / tried so it is possible that I would be able to do what Mike suggested if I go that route.

if I were to get a different set of components between the Linn Turntable and the OB pairs, what would you guys suggest? I'd like to keep the costs down but also do the Wedgies justice...

Danny Richie · « **Reply #18 on:** 29 Dec 2014, 05:10 pm »

Sometimes my customers give the best advice. My customers are the best.

Advice from customers can come with un-biased feedback that often carries more weight than that of the designer.

Quote from: grimace on 28 Dec 2014, 02:26 pm

Thanks Mike. That's very helpful.

Danny, any update on the sub design for the Wedgies? Is this 'best speaker stand' ever' http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=129161.0 it?

Now that the holidays are behind me I can get back on projects like the base for the wedgies.

The servo stand is perfect for any mini-monitor, but isn't going to keep up well with the 95db sensitivity and output capability of the Wedgie. Think of the servo stand as being ideal for an application using a mini-monitor. Small rooms and reasonable SPL levels are where the servo stand fits best.

grimace · « **Reply #19 on:** 29 Dec 2014, 06:55 pm »

Quote from: Danny Richie on 29 Dec 2014, 05:10 pm

Sometimes my customers give the best advice. My customers are the best. Advice from customers can come with un-biased feedback that often carries more weight than that of the designer.

Now that the holidays are behind me I can get back on projects like the base for the wedgies.

The servo stand is perfect for any mini-monitor, but isn't going to keep up well with the 95db sensitivity and output capability of the Wedgie. Think of the servo stand as being ideal for an application using a mini-monitor. Small rooms and reasonable SPL levels are where the servo stand fits best.

Yeah, loved the informative and well thought out help from Mike and Jay. Thanks again guys. So nice to be a newbie on this forum.

Danny, I'd like to go with the Wedgie (we really need to rename that!)

and the forthcoming base that you design. In the meanwhile, I will just listen to my "new" turntable on my N3-TLs. Do you see any issues with the way Mike and Jay were describing how I would have to wire up the old Denon for the OB pairs eventually? Also, I would love to hear any other thoughts or suggestions you might have. If the Denon won't do the speakers justice, what would? I could pass down the Denon to my daughter for her college apartment and get something more appropriate if needed.

Thanks Danny and Happy New Year!