[JackD201]

I see that your dimensions are indeed challenging and that you are forced to place at least one of the 33s next to a window.

I'm curious S5, I noticed that you use NOS tubes in your office system and that it appears you have a liking for Mullards. What tubes are you using in your 3B and how long have you had them there? Even the milspec Mullard 6dj8/6922s like the CV2492s do not particularly excel at punchiness.

[stereo5]

My preamp uses the only tubes recommended by Audible Illusions, 6h23nev tubes.  Anything other than those will not last long because AI runs them at high voltage. Let me ask you this, the speakers in my office system used to be in my main system and the bass was astounding with just a Scanspeak 7 inch woofer and Scanspeak silk dome tweeter, why is that? The bass problem only started when I put the Vr33's into the system.  I could just put the VS speakers into the other system, but I could never get them close enough to the wall because of the steep angle of the roof (the second floor of my house was the attic before it was finished).  Forgot to mention that both the Vs speakers are on either side of a window about 8 feet apart and I sit about 9 feet away. 

Anything else I could try?

[JackD201]

I'll do my best Stereo but I'll need some more info and clarification with the additional assumption that changes to the room itself are outside of our scope.

In what particular area of the bass response is there a problem. Is it punchiness (my understanding), extension?
The reason I ask is that if it is in the punchiness, your other speakers just may be outperforming the 33s in that area and there could be many reasons for it like

a. The woofer of your other speakers runs all the way down to the mechanical roll off point and does so front firing. Punch is after all in the upper part of the bass range, actually above where you have your suck-out.

b. 33s and 35s like more rigid walls behind them. If you have gypsum, it won't be as good as sheet rock or even marine ply much less CHB or Concrete. Even if you did or do have rigid walls behind them, the rear woofer is meant to provide extension but not punch. It is crossed over too low. Adjustable woofers like in the Triton or for that matter my VR-9s wouldn't help in a poor punch situation. Acoustically, EQ is the worst way to fill up a suck out so I would rule out EQ. I never boost with EQ, only cut. Boosting can wreak havoc on downline components, stress on your amplifier being one.

I will rule out the amp/preamp as I've heard these rock with much lesser powered amps with much less damping factors. As you are using 6H23s (which I am familiar with because these are stock Lamm tubes) I rule that out too.

If my assumptions are correct, factoring in your music preferences. I'm not too sure that another speaker with small mid/midbass drivers would be the answer. Chances are they still won't get the chest thump factor. For Rock I lean towards larger mid units, surprise! 7" or 8" units and preferably paper based ones. Strangely enough, the VR-22 or something similar in configuration might actually be the better solution for you. Given the space constraints I hesitate to recommend the larger speakers with the 7.5" mids and 9.5" woofers because of how performance would be limited by the placement options. That's a lot of money for unrealized potential.

As a last ditch (and free) thing to try. Mid-bass is directional. While these speakers are typically not toed in, you could give some toe in a try.

[BigSwede]

b. 33s and 35s like more rigid walls behind them. If you have gypsum, it won't be as good as sheet rock or even marine ply much less CHB or Concrete. Even if you did or do have rigid walls behind them, the rear woofer is meant to provide extension but not punch. It is crossed over too low.

I think this is true. I have my 33s at 9" from the wall, but I have good ol' 1950s plaster walls, which are a lot more rigid than drywall.

Oh, and FWIW "sheetrock" is gypsum drywall, it is just a brand name for drywall that everybody uses, like Kleenex for facial tissue.

[JackD201]

oops 

[stereo5]

My house was built in 1921 and it has horsehair walls.  It is harder than rock (I mean it).  Not looking for thumping bass, but it seems that some of the bass (certain frequency's) are missing.  I will move them back a little closer to the walls and try toeing them in a little.  If that doesn't work, then I am at a loss.  Here is what I don't understand:  For years I had Vandersteen 2ci speakers and the bass was perfectly fine with me.  I moved on to the Kismet reference speakers from Odyssey which use the Scanspeak drivers mentioned before and the bass was perfectly fine.  I then buy the VS with more drivers, a much bigger cabinet and the bass is lacking.  Nothing else in the system changed. 

[mdconnelly]

I think this is true. I have my 33s at 9" from the wall, but I have good ol' 1950s plaster walls, which are a lot more rigid than drywall.

Oh, and FWIW "sheetrock" is gypsum drywall, it is just a brand name for drywall that everybody uses, like Kleenex for facial tissue.

Hmmm, I have my VR-35s on an interior wall that is simply a hollow drywall.   They actually sound pretty good, but now I'm wondering - would putting some form of paneling behind the speakers make a big difference?  Or, would filling in the wall gap with something also work?  Anyone with any experience on this?   

[Delacroix]

Just a thought, but did your 33s ship with any stuffing in the port? I don't think they do but you might check.

[kernelbob]

Some time ago a poster said that, due to a room layout issue, they had to position VR33's (35's?) well away from the front wall but that placing a heavy block cutting board just behind the speakers generated great bass.

[stereo5]

Just a thought, but did your 33s ship with any stuffing in the port? I don't think they do but you might check.

No stuffing in the ports at all.

[gbeard]

Some time ago a poster said that, due to a room layout issue, they had to position VR33's (35's?) well away from the front wall but that placing a heavy block cutting board just behind the speakers generated great bass.

I had read that post too Bob and have wanted to try it with my 35s.  Before I comment on that, I want to say that I had had some trouble with soft bass too, but I was having some other issues as well. My system sounded very good, but I knew I could improve it more, I just wasn't sure how. I contacted Albert and explained the sound I was getting and he told me to check the wall behind. To make a long story short, my hollow wall was storing energy and robbing the sound of its impact. I moved the speakers to another (long) wall and the difference is NOT subtle. Along with more impact and lower bass, I got better imaging and staging, especially depth. That said, tonight I threw a couple pieces of 5/8" plywood behind the speakers as an experiment, and I can report an increase in bass and what seems to be better articulation too. However, I think you have to be careful what you wish for, as it does change the balance of the speaker, so this must be carefully applied. Still, my hour of discovery has shown this to be an effective tweak for these speakers. I think the type, size, thickness,method of mounting/spacing, location i.e... everything, will make a difference. I am going to continue to experiment to see if this is a long-term beneficial tweak, or just a short term difference that makes the speaker sound different. Don't get me wrong, the bass I get is excellent, tuneful and deep, but I will say that as other posters have offered here, the 35 sound changes dramatically dependent on what is behind it.

Oh and one poster made a comment about the VR22 having great bass...I found the same thing when I reviewed them. They are perhaps a "punchier" speaker (once broken in), but the 35s are clearly more refined. I would also echo to let them break in longer. It takes these speakers a long time to find their complete voice.

S5, I hope you find what you are after. Good luck!

I will report further findings on the wood behind the speaker. I now believe this to be a worthy exploration. Albert, if you are reading this, what would your thoughts be on this idea?

Cheers,
gary
 

[Wolfpack85]

My house was built in 1921 and it has horsehair walls.  It is harder than rock (I mean it).  Not looking for thumping bass, but it seems that some of the bass (certain frequency's) are missing.  I will move them back a little closer to the walls and try toeing them in a little.  If that doesn't work, then I am at a loss.  Here is what I don't understand:  For years I had Vandersteen 2ci speakers and the bass was perfectly fine with me.  I moved on to the Kismet reference speakers from Odyssey which use the Scanspeak drivers mentioned before and the bass was perfectly fine.  I then buy the VS with more drivers, a much bigger cabinet and the bass is lacking.  Nothing else in the system changed.

I really don't think it's the walls. Pull the speakers out into the room away from the walls and about 6' apart and stand 6' from the speakers. If the missing frequency shows up then you know it's not the speaker. You may miss the very low end but the point is to find the void. If you find it then you know its the speaker in that particular location. I would rather give up the very low end and have the lower mids coming through solid but I also know you really can't move the speakers permanantly. Front facing drivers with a sealed design may be a better option in your current speaker location. Just a thought however.

[mdconnelly]

I will definitely try wood behind my VR-35s to hear the differences.   Would a simple sheet of plywood or other composite be sufficient?   I know, time to experiment 

When I first bought the VR-35s I had the luxury of having them in a much bigger room and placed on an outside wall.   The speakers were easy to position, the bass tight and well defined.  When I had to move them to the current room on an inside wall it took me quite a while to find a position that I was happy with - and that ended up being just 3" from the front wall.  Bass is still not quite as impactful as perhaps I would like so it will be interesting to see where this goes.

If it turns out the wall composition does make a big difference, it would not be that big a project to reinforce that wall (albeit, with spousal issues to be addressed as well).    But first, I need to be convinced of the difference and that the difference is, in fact, an improvement.   

[stereo5]

My VR33's are on an outside wall.  I bought these speakers ONLY because they were advertised that they were made to go close to the wall in a typical living room.  I have a typical living room that 2 lesser pairs of speakers (Vandersteen 2ci and Odyssey Kismet Reference floorstanding speakers) sounded much better in the bass department with exactly all the same equipment.   If you look at the picture on the left side you will see the Kismet speakers and where they were placed and the size in relation to the VSA speaker.  On the right is the VR33 in place on it's spikes.  You can clearly see the Odyssey speaker blocking part of the TV which was what I was trying to alleviate with the VSA.  The bass from the Odyssey speaker was and is spectacular and goes as deep and is much more full and defined compared to the VSA speaker.

I'm out of ideas.

[SlushPuppy]

I bought a brand new pair of Vandersteen 2ce Signatures years ago that sounded magnificent in the showroom but were complete shit in my living room. I did everything I could to get the magic back that I heard at the dealer but never came close. I traded them back for a different brand and was much happier. I'd sell your 33's and change direction. I've heard the 33's when they were "on" and they gave me major goosebumps, but no loudspeaker works in every room.

Happy listening,

Slush

[JackD201]

no loudspeaker works in every room.

Sad but true

[steve f]

Hi Stereo 5,

I don't own vr33s, but I do know about old house listening rooms. My previous home was about a 1915-18 balloon framed stucco building.  I did a renovation.
Just a couple of points. First the old plaster over lath walls are applied in a very inconsistent manner. All of the framing defects, and there are many, are taken up in the plaster. Nobody framed straight back then. The plasterers just applied more or less plaster to fill things smooth.
Second point. Most floors are 3/4" hardwood, usually red oak over sleepers, making for a fairly vibrant surface for upper bass. For example, corner horns because they are floor and wall dependent, suck in this type of construction. Just to experiment, try putting a piece of 5/8-3/4" MDF under each speaker. Use pieces a couple of feet square. If that doesn't help, or is just too ugly, you need different speakers.
BTW your speaker cable has sufficient gauge for fifty feet lengths.
Good luck.

Steve

[kernelbob]

If you want to try putting a panel behind the VR33's woofer, I'd suggest a pair of large, heavy butcher block cutting boards instead of plywood, MDF, etc.  That stuff will resonate where the cutting boards will be inert.  You can always pick up a pair of them and return them if they don't work out.

[stereo5]

Problem solved.  I bought a pair of Triton Ones and they are being delivered Saturday morning.  Thanks for all your help everyone.

[mca]

I will be interested to hear how the Triton Ones sound.