[Tyson]

Rice is very different from wheat.  I agree rice is benign, because it's almost pure glucose.  Wheat has a lot of other stuff in it that makes it problematic.  And due to genetic tinkering, modern wheat has more of the bad stuff, because it makes it easier to bake with. 

But you are right, most of the "blue zones" where people live to be a long time, rice is a staple.  Wheat is not.

[RDavidson]

And that is where we disagree.  But arguing online is a bit futile.  The proof is in results.  I invite you to give it a try.  30 days only.  See how you feel by the end.  I'd be willing to bet that a lot of things improve.  Just from myself and the people I know, things like GERD/Acid reflux get better, weight loss occurs (without calorie restriction), blood pressure drops, Triglycerides plummet, HDL goes up, sleep improves, mood improves, you stop snoring, seasonal allergies improve. 

I don't think Sugar/Grains/Dairy CAUSE these conditions.  I think people already are prone to them and the Sugar/Grains/Dairy simply make them worse.  Again, just try it, what's the harm?  30 days is pretty doable.  If you do, I'd love to hear your experience.

True weight loss, ie loss of body fat (not water or glycogen stores) can only be done with a calorie deficit. There's no pseudoscience around this fact.
Note I don't have ANY of the problems you list, so how would I benefit?

[Tyson]

Let's consider something here, as it's not like you or your friends conducted a controlled study. Many dairy products are processed quite a bit. Many dairy products have a lot of added sugars (yogurt and ice cream especially). Many grain based products are also processed and contain added sugars as well as other simple carbs as well as preservatives. Are you positive that removing these things from your diet and feeling better is a direct consequence of just removing grains and dairy from your diet, or do you think it might at least also be correlated with removing these somewhat elusive sources of sugars, simple carbs and preservatives, and replacing them natural whole foods (more fruits, veggies, animal proteins etc)? This is what I really question. By targeting the bigger picture, you subsequently take care of the underlying issue.

I can tell that every time people let grains/sugars back in their diet, the health improvements go away.  And when removed again, health improvements return.  It's not a DBT but it is a challenge study.  If adding/removing a food has no effect, it's not problematic.  If it does, then it is.  Simple. 

[RDavidson]

I can tell that every time people let grains/sugars back in their diet, the health improvements go away.  And when removed again, health improvements return.  It's not a DBT but it is a challenge study.  If adding/removing a food has no effect, it's not problematic.  If it does, then it is.  Simple.

Sugars and grains can't be lumped together.
It's obviously not simple, or there'd be solid scientific evidence of what you're saying (universally), not anecdotally.

I won't argue what works for you. I just don't agree with a universal recommendation of something that may not apply to ALL. That's all I'm getting at.

[Tyson]

True weight loss, ie loss of body fat (not water or glycogen stores) can only be done with a calorie deficit. There's no pseudoscience around this fact.
Note I don't have ANY of the problems you list, so how would I benefit?

No doubt! caloric deficit is needed.  Normally this means people "diet", ie they eat to less than satiety over time and weight loss ensues (usually).  But the changes I am suggesting tend to lower the amount of food needed to achieve satiety, and thus caloric deficit (and weight loss) is achieved gently and easily, no "dieting" involved, if you catch my meaning.

[RDavidson]

No doubt! caloric deficit is needed.  Normally this means people "diet", ie they eat to less than satiety over time and weight loss ensues (usually).  But the changes I am suggesting tend to lower the amount of food needed to achieve satiety, and thus caloric deficit (and weight loss) is achieved gently and easily, no "dieting" involved, if you catch my meaning.

Understood, but that's not really how you put it, originally. Weather or not a deficit is intended, there's still a deficit.

[Tyson]

Sugars and grains can't be lumped together.
It's obviously not simple, or there'd be solid scientific evidence of what you're saying (universally), not anecdotally.

I won't argue what works for you. I just don't agree with a universal recommendation of something that may not apply to ALL. That's all I'm getting at.

That's why I suggest trying it for 30 days.  If there's no improvements, no harm no foul.  But if there are, then you know.  And you are in a better place to add each one back, one at a time, to see which ones are the real culprits.

And I never said they were problematic for everyone.  I said they were likely problematic for a large majority.  And I stand by that.  I do find it interesting how strongly my simply suggestion is being opposed, though...

[Folsom]

Grains become sugar, so it's not entirely off.

Grains are converted to glucose. However the glucose will vary in conversion amounts and time, the glycemic index, in grains. In general sugar in products is going to predominately absorbed quickly not in respect to fiber, however, because it doesn't have to be converted by bacteria. Low mobility of the digestive system will act grains work more like straight sugar. White rice is one of the biggest glycemic loads there is, and ironically brown is pretty healthy! Rice also helps to keeps livers detoxified. Glycemic index isn't everyone's problem, not what so ever. But even with white rice it's not as high of a glycemic index as straight sugar, and it offers more than nothing for health at least.

BUT not all sugars act this way, glucose does. Fructose is entirely different. It doesn't raise blood sugar in the same way, but it does have to be processed by the liver - that can be a problem. HFCS is unique in that the corn derivation makes it likely to upset the bacteria in the gut, causing a totally different reaction overall despite the fact the sugars act the same once in the body... but the body handles sugars differently and at different times based on intestinal bacteria...  for the same reason most vitamin C sources from corn will lower immunity due to gut flora affects, as much as it improves immunity from the vitamin C. Ha!!!

Also I suspect because HFCS entirely lacks a "sharp" taste to it so you can't ever be satisfied with it. That may be part of how it tricks the brain. But corn is known to be an insulin modifier for the worst anyway.

[Tyson]

Here's a cool tip - if you cook white rice and cool it off in the refrigerator for a few hours, it's glycemic index/load cuts in half.  Because it forms resistant starch, which feeds your gut bacteria, and doesn't cause blood sugar spikes.  And reheating it doesn't change it back.  Once it's cooled, it will never cause giant spikes like freshly cooked rice.

Parboiled rice is just that - a bit of precooking, then cooled and dehydrated.  So Uncle Ben's Original rice falls into this category - just make sure it says parboiled on the label. 

There's a reason the blue zones are rice (or tuber/plantain) based, not wheat based.  People do better eating plants without protein structures.  The proteins are where the toxins are (in plants). 

As a side note, I find that many substances which are toxic are also quite addictive - alcohol, tobacco, sugar, caffeine, grains, dairy.  Just kick that crap to the curb.

[RDavidson]

Kick diets based on anecdotal info to the curb also.

Note, I had a health screening earlier this year. All my blood work showed I am in optimal health. HDL and LDL cholesterol were at essentially perfect levels, same goes for my triglycerides. In fact, I scored an A until they factored my BMI (which is the worst way to account for body composition). Then I got knocked down to a B. I can scan it and send it to you if you want to see it.

I eat whole grains and dairy daily. So I guess I should I go tell everyone to do everything I'm doing as a universal cure-all, as you suggest, just as cutting grains and dairy worked for you personally (Tyson)?

Food for thought. Chew on it.

[RDavidson]

That's why I suggest trying it for 30 days.  If there's no improvements, no harm no foul.  But if there are, then you know.  And you are in a better place to add each one back, one at a time, to see which ones are the real culprits.

And I never said they were problematic for everyone.  I said they were likely problematic for a large majority.  And I stand by that.  I do find it interesting how strongly my simply suggestion is being opposed, though...

You're meeting strong opposition, because you are strongly suggesting something that may not affect the "large majority" as you believe. Can you cite this info?

[RDavidson]

As a side note, I find that many substances which are toxic are also quite addictive - alcohol, tobacco, sugar, caffeine, grains, dairy.  Just kick that crap to the curb.

You've shared some useful and true info scattered throughout your comments/arguments, but now I know you're just ridiculous and have lost all credibility. I can't believe you lumped grains and dairy in with TRULY addictive substances (ie alcohol, tobacco, sugar). If dairy and grain based products have any addictive factor, it's due to simple carbs and sugars (often added) to the natural balance of the foods. When was the last time you heard someone say, "Oh my gawd! I just have to have some Bob's Red Mill Organic High Fiber Whole Grain hot cereal or I'm going to lose it." Yeah.

[Tyson]

Sigh.  We can argue til the cows come home.  I'd say, if you are in perfect health, don't change anything.  My advice is geared toward those who are NOT in perfect health and looking for something simple to try.  If it's effective, then it's effective.  If it's not, its not. 

And I'd point out, if it works, then it works regardless of how many scientific papers have (or have not) been published.  Science is awesome, but population studies and even DBT studies don't tell you how a particular food affects a specific person.

I don't feel like my suggestions have been too wild eyed or crazy, just something for people to try, if they've been unsuccessful with other approaches. 

[RDavidson]

Sigh.  We can argue til the cows come home.  I'd say, if you are in perfect health, don't change anything.  My advice is geared toward those who are NOT in perfect health and looking for something simple to try.  If it's effective, then it's effective.  If it's not, its not. 

And I'd point out, if it works, then it works regardless of how many scientific papers have (or have not) been published.  Science is awesome, but population studies and even DBT studies don't tell you how a particular food affects a specific person.

I don't feel like my suggestions have been too wild eyed or crazy, just something for people to try, if they've been unsuccessful with other approaches.

Had you stated what you just said above to start with, I wouldn't have opposed your suggestion so hard

I think I was more just put-off by the way you initially presented your information than anything else. It came off as factual info that everyone (universally) should follow, which you're now saying is not necessarily the case. Thank you for that.

You obviously feel strongly about your experience and want others to feel the same benefit as you. And again, I won't argue with what has worked for you. But the fact of the matter is, people can be perfectly healthy while eating grains and dairy. I'm an example of that and I'm not so certain I am a minority in this respect. But I did say earlier that I agree that some people may be more sensitive to grains and dairy than they know, and I guess that's your point. Some ailments could be somehow linked to this sensitivity or could be sort of creating a "perfect storm" in your body for them to occur, so there's certainly no harm in testing yourself.

So, whenever you guys find that you are sensitive to grains and dairy, send me a PM. I'll evacuate your home of them.

[Folsom]

*Dairy has an opiate-ish component to it, so yes it may have a minor addictive quality.

*Blood sugar is addictive, and while grains can contribute, mostly forms of sugar do. It's well known diabetics and pre-diabetics have intense urges to eat.

I wouldn't rank dairy in itself as a healthy food option for everyone. In fact all studies show milk on it's own is a higher risk drink for osteoporosis. On the flip side Ghee is extraordinarily healthy; it's also not just clarified butter. But Ghee has no lactose, water, or cholesterol left in it. It also cooks at a higher temperature because there's nothing to burn in it! Whey based cheeses can help the body appropriately release insulin; studies show while it acts in a way you'd think could negatively influence weight gain, it does not appear to happen. For someone that is thrifty in body, that's useful! The other form of cheese, aged, helps restrict gut bacteria over-population. I'm sure someone on here has had a flare of too small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, which creates diarrhea etc. The big trick is knowing if you're thrifty/insulin issues and/or sensitive to mold, or prone towards bacterial overgrowth. In other words, eating both kinds of cheese doesn't particularly benefit anyone because they're almost entirely predisposed towards one or the other!

Tyson is pretty strong about his opinions, because if he wasn't strict with himself he'd be dead instead of a member of the community here. Whether he's entirely correct or not, he's alive and better for caring at all as opposed to spouting lots of knowledge and living the typical SAD diet (stupid and destructive) the USA seems so vested in refining through boxed products...

[G Georgopoulos]

The secret is be active,run,walk,exersise,you could eat what you want...my $0.02...

[Tyson]

Had you stated what you just said above to start with, I wouldn't have opposed your suggestion so hard

I think I was more just put-off by the way you initially presented your information than anything else. It came off as factual info that everyone (universally) should follow, which you're now saying is not necessarily the case. Thank you for that.

You obviously feel strongly about your experience and want others to feel the same benefit as you. And again, I won't argue with what has worked for you. But the fact of the matter is, people can be perfectly healthy while eating grains and dairy. I'm an example of that and I'm not so certain I am a minority in this respect. But I did say earlier that I agree that some people may be more sensitive to grains and dairy than they know, and I guess that's your point. Some ailments could be somehow linked to this sensitivity or could be sort of creating a "perfect storm" in your body for them to occur, so there's certainly no harm in testing yourself.

So, whenever you guys find that you are sensitive to grains and dairy, send me a PM. I'll evacuate your home of them.

Haha, agreed man.  And you are right, sometimes I come off as too strong in my communication style, usually when I'm trying to keep things as simply stated as possible.  Because my natural tendency is to over-communicate and give way too much detail, so I have to be disciplined against doing that

*Dairy has an opiate-ish component to it, so yes it may have a minor addictive quality.

*Blood sugar is addictive, and while grains can contribute, mostly forms of sugar do. It's well known diabetics and pre-diabetics have intense urges to eat.

I wouldn't rank dairy in itself as a healthy food option for everyone. In fact all studies show milk on it's own is a higher risk drink for osteoporosis. On the flip side Ghee is extraordinarily healthy; it's also not just clarified butter. But Ghee has no lactose, water, or cholesterol left in it. It also cooks at a higher temperature because there's nothing to burn in it! Whey based cheeses can help the body appropriately release insulin; studies show while it acts in a way you'd think could negatively influence weight gain, it does not appear to happen. For someone that is thrifty in body, that's useful! The other form of cheese, aged, helps restrict gut bacteria over-population. I'm sure someone on here has had a flare of too small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, which creates diarrhea etc. The big trick is knowing if you're thrifty/insulin issues and/or sensitive to mold, or prone towards bacterial overgrowth. In other words, eating both kinds of cheese doesn't particularly benefit anyone because they're almost entirely predisposed towards one or the other!

Tyson is pretty strong about his opinions, because if he wasn't strict with himself he'd be dead instead of a member of the community here. Whether he's entirely correct or not, he's alive and better for caring at all as opposed to spouting lots of knowledge and living the typical SAD diet (stupid and destructive) the USA seems so vested in refining through boxed products...

Still alive and kicking.  Although I did develop a pretty serious alcohol problem as a result of dealing with the PTSD and anxiety attacks that resulted from my out-of-the-blue near fatal heart attack.  That shit was intense.  Drinking a bit helped dial it down.  But then one became 2, and you know where that ends.

Anyway, kicked that to the curb completely.  But having experienced real addiction with alcohol, I can state with some clarity that kicking grains and sugar and dairy all had similar roads.  Intense cravings for a month or 2 after giving them up, then social/pattern based cravings for a few more months, then finally complete freedom (more or less).  But I still think about eating ice cream or a donut the same way I occasionally think about having a cup of coffee or a glass of scotch.  It would be nice, but the downsides are too clear to go down that path.  At least for me.

The funny thing is - I feel so much better, not just physically, but mentally/emotionally too.  Anxiety/stress attacks are gone.  Hell, even a thread like this one would have riled me up and gotten me pissed off and wanted to force everyone to agree with me, cause I was RIGHT dammit!  But now, nothing like that.  I feel pretty close to what I imagine the zen buddhists all talk about - calm but focused.  I keep waiting for it to go away, but so far it's pretty stable. 

[steve f]

RDavidson. I can understand skepticism. Here is a book for those who want to learn a lot more about nutrition. The author is probably the foremost researcher in the field. T. Colin Campbell. WHOLE: Rethinking the Science of Nutrition. Intended for laymen, but with extensive documentation. A very complete explanation.

Nutrition light: Rent Forks Over Knives. There is also a second video, The Extended Interviews. Both are on Netflix.

[RDavidson]

RDavidson. I can understand skepticism. Here is a book for those who want to learn a lot more about nutrition. The author is probably the foremost researcher in the field. T. Colin Campbell. WHOLE: Rethinking the Science of Nutrition. Intended for laymen, but with extensive documentation. A very complete explanation.

Nutrition light: Rent Forks Over Knives. There is also a second video, The Extended Interviews. Both are on Netflix.

Actually, I'm not skeptical at all that eating a veggie based diet is the very best way to go. I just like meat and dairy (preferably organic grass fed cage free etc) and other whole foods, in addition to veggies (and a little bit of fruit). I'm only skeptical about giving up grains and dairy (as a universal recommendation) especially in light of my excellent health. That's where I had to put on the breaks. I'm sure there are others who eat a very similar diet as I do and follow a similar exercise regimen as I do and also are in excellent health, without giving up grains or dairy. That's where I'm coming from. I'm not against things that clearly work for other people, or may even make me slightly more healthy than I am now. I'm just resistant to changing what is clearly working for me. I'm happy with where I'm at and don't have a real reason to change. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? Though I guess we're all slowly breaking after a certain point.......so........maybe I should start employing other diet methodologies or some aspects of them. Looks like a great book. Thanks for pointing me to it.

[Folsom]

Why don't you just try non-offensible grains instead of getting extreme.

1/4 - 1/2 cup uncooked brown rice or quinoa, 2-3 times a day.

Dairy, maybe like 1-3 oz 2-3 times a week as cheese, not milk.

Meat might be good for you. If you look at my earlier information it will explain how if you lack the A antigen, you need not fear meat. However vegetables remain good for you.