[RDavidson]

Pretty much agree with everything you've said, Tyson. I LOVE roasted veggies.
But, I'm not so sure that cutting ALL grains and dairy is necessary, as a universal recommendation.
A lot of people are more sensitive to grains and dairy than they realize, though. If you think you might be one of these people, an easy test is to cut one or both things out of your diet for a week or so and judge how you feel. In general, I think moderation is key. If you eat grains, eat whole grains, not the processed bleached junk. If you consume dairy, just don't make it your sole source for the main nutrients found in dairy (ie protein, calcium, potassium, vitamin D, fat). Varied diets consisting of primarily whole foods is the key.

[Wayner]

In case you didn't know it, humans are omnivores. That means that they need to consume all kinds of different stuff, like meat, sugar (the brain runs on glucose), vegetables, grains, and yes, even dairy. It's been done this way for all time. To advise someone to cut out essentials to their diet is just plain, bad advise.

[RDavidson]

In case you didn't know it, humans are omnivores. That means that they need to consume all kinds of different stuff, like meat, sugar (the brain runs on glucose), vegetables, grains, and yes, even dairy. It's been done this way for all time. To advise someone to cut out essentials to their diet is just plain, bad advise.

The brain does need some sugar, but I think it is a bit overstated how much it REALLY needs. Natural foods (fruit especially) have enough natural sugar. The problem is added refined sugars (found in virtually all processed foods, table sugar, high fructose corn syrup, etc.). We don't need that junk.

[Wayner]

Correct. Drinking a 12 pack of Mountain Dew a day is perhaps not a good thing. It all goes back to moderation. BTW, there are sugars in alcohol for all of you that like to polish off a few while listening to music.....

[steve f]

The only time mammals need dairy is when they are infants. Dairy products have no value for humans at all. Just another health misconception.

[Wayner]

A great source for vitamin D and calcium. Dairy includes milk, but also cheese, yogurt, and yummy things like sour cream. BTW, my wife is the local school nutrition guru, so while I'm certainly not an expert, I know my pints and quarts!.........

[Tyson]

Wayner,
Way better source of Vit D - sunshine. 

I've discovered that sugar, grains, and dairy are actually addictive to the human body.  The more you ask people to stop eating them (even temporarily), the more they will fight you, tooth and nail, to INSIST that they cannot.  It's a pretty strong emotional reaction to a relatively benign suggestion.  People will cut down/out red meat, saturated fats, eggs, etc...without much of a qualm.  But, ask them to give up their whole grain bagels with cream cheese and you are in for a FIGHT!

[Tyson]

The brain does need some sugar, but I think it is a bit overstated how much it REALLY needs. Natural foods (fruit especially) have enough natural sugar. The problem is added refined sugars (found in virtually all processed foods, table sugar, high fructose corn syrup, etc.). We don't need that junk.

The brain needs GLUCOSE to run on, not "sugar" in the sense of table sugar.  Glucose is abundant in things like starchy veggies! So your brain will not starve for glucose if you cut out sugar. 

[RDavidson]

The only time mammals need dairy is when they are infants. Dairy products have no value for humans at all. Just another health misconception.

Again, we're not all the same, so blanket statements like this aren't helpful. If your body can tolerate dairy, by all means, consume it. Misconception or not, dairy products aren't poison and actually have a lot of nutritional benefit. No value for all humankind? I'd love to see the source of this info. I'd also love to read about any info you can find where someone became seriously ill or died from consuming a normal amount of untainted dairy products over time. Death by ice cream, show me.

[RDavidson]

The brain needs GLUCOSE to run on, not "sugar" in the sense of table sugar.  Glucose is abundant in things like starchy veggies! So your brain will not starve for glucose if you cut out sugar.

Right. I think this is what Wayner was trying to say. You're technically more correct than he.

[Tyson]

Again, we're not all the same, so blanket statements like this aren't helpful. If your body can tolerate dairy, by all means, consume it. Misconception or not, dairy products aren't poison and actually have a lot of nutritional benefit. No value for all humankind? I'd love to see the source of this info. I'd also love to read about any info you can find where someone became seriously ill or died from consuming a normal amount of untainted dairy products over time. Death by ice cream, show me.

Right, but the ONLY way to find it out is to cut it out and find out.  I'd say the 3 things I listed (Sugar/Grains/Dairy) are highly likely to be problematic for most people.  Cut them out for 30 days and then go from there.  But the moment you suggest something like this, people come out with the "hey, lets not get too crazy here!" argument, and the "Well, humans are omnivores, so lets eat WTF we want".  Incredibly strong push back to what is, again, a relatively easy thing to try.

[jonbee]

I did some extended juicing diets a while back, with mixed results, but just a couple of general comments on creating juices.
First, be aware that you are created non-pasteurized juices. Bugs grow very fast in this stuff- they like it! So- don't store it for more than one day, and make sure your juicer and storage containers are kept very clean. Some people are known to have gotten very sick by not minding this.
Second, it takes a lot of vegetables and fruit to make a quart of juice, so it is quite expensive- I figured $3-5 per 16 oz. glass! It means a lot of washing, cutting and grinding to get your rations. It took me 40 minutes a day to make the juice for my wife and I, including cleanup.
I've sort of moved over to drinking things like V-8 or Muscle Milk for my lunches when I want to eat light. Easier and cheaper, but to each his own!
Good luck.

[RDavidson]

Wayner,
Way better source of Vit D - sunshine. 

I've discovered that sugar, grains, and dairy are actually addictive to the human body.  The more you ask people to stop eating them (even temporarily), the more they will fight you, tooth and nail, to INSIST that they cannot.  It's a pretty strong emotional reaction to a relatively benign suggestion.  People will cut down/out red meat, saturated fats, eggs, etc...without much of a qualm.  But, ask them to give up their whole grain bagels with cream cheese and you are in for a FIGHT!

Sunshine doesn't provide vitamin D. It just helps your body produce it.
Keep in mind that some people live in areas where they may not have much sunshine for 4-6 months.
People won't fight giving up eggs and red meat because the news has told us that all saturated fats are bad. Plus these foods are high in cholesterol, good and bad. Whole different argument that can take many avenues, but that's the core of it.
People will fight giving up things like bagels because they're addicted to carbs and there's lack of evidence that giving up grains and dairy is universally beneficial. When the news starts telling people to do so, they'll listen, but they still might not give them up.

[Tyson]

But not all carbs are bad.  I think rice and potatoes (hell, all tubers) are just fine.  Beans are fine too.  I think the whole argument gets bogged down when people talk about "carbs/fats/proteins".  I think the problem is specific foods - some are damaging/addictive, others are not. 

In my own personal experience, everyone I have managed to give up Grains has benefited.  Some of the enormously.  I've had less luck getting people to give up dairy and sugar.  I've actually stopped coffee and alcohol too, and physically I feel better than I have since 1st year college. 

[RDavidson]

Right, but the ONLY way to find it out is to cut it out and find out.  I'd say the 3 things I listed (Sugar/Grains/Dairy) are highly likely to be problematic for most people.  Cut them out for 30 days and then go from there.  But the moment you suggest something like this, people come out with the "hey, lets not get too crazy here!" argument, and the "Well, humans are omnivores, so lets eat WTF we want".  Incredibly strong push back to what is, again, a relatively easy thing to try.

My push back is due to lack of universal evidence of the benefit of doing so (added refined sugars not included). It has nothing to do with feeling like I MUST EAT grains and dairy. I eat oatmeal almost daily. I also eat cottage cheese, and Greek yogurt almost daily. These are just part of my personal, healthy, and varied diet and I like them. So why should I even try giving them up? It just doesn't make sense to me, personally. Why should I change what I'm doing if it is working for me? Maybe there is benefit I'll have to just miss out on. I'm OK with that. As soon as what you're saying has more scientific studies behind it that points toward universal benefit, please send the info my way.

[RDavidson]

But not all carbs are bad.  I think rice and potatoes (hell, all tubers) are just fine.  Beans are fine too.  I think the whole argument gets bogged down when people talk about "carbs/fats/proteins".  I think the problem is specific foods - some are damaging/addictive, others are not. 

In my own personal experience, everyone I have managed to give up Grains has benefited.  Some of the enormously.  I've had less luck getting people to give up dairy and sugar.  I've actually stopped coffee and alcohol too, and physically I feel better than I have since 1st year college.

Giving up added sugars. +1 Universal benefit.
Giving up grains. Not sure. Like I said, some people are more gluten sensitive than they realize, but this doesn't apply to all.
Giving up dairy. Not sure. Like grains, some people are more tolerant than others.

At the end of the day, whole grains and dairy aren't poison or detrimental to the health of all. Sugars in abundance will slowly kill you.

[Tyson]

Giving up added sugars. +1 Universal benefit.
Giving up grains. Not sure. Like I said, some people are more gluten sensitive than they realize, but this doesn't apply to all.
Giving up dairy. Not sure. Like grains, some people are more tolerant than others.

At the end of the day, whole grains and dairy aren't poison or detrimental to the health of all. Sugars in abundance will slowly kill you.

And that is where we disagree.  But arguing online is a bit futile.  The proof is in results.  I invite you to give it a try.  30 days only.  See how you feel by the end.  I'd be willing to bet that a lot of things improve.  Just from myself and the people I know, things like GERD/Acid reflux get better, weight loss occurs (without calorie restriction), blood pressure drops, Triglycerides plummet, HDL goes up, sleep improves, mood improves, you stop snoring, seasonal allergies improve. 

I don't think Sugar/Grains/Dairy CAUSE these conditions.  I think people already are prone to them and the Sugar/Grains/Dairy simply make them worse.  Again, just try it, what's the harm?  30 days is pretty doable.  If you do, I'd love to hear your experience.

[Folsom]

I would be SICK without grains. They provide one thing you can't get elsewhere, I forget what it was... BUT

*If you have low stomach acid and IAP, you're not going to be able substantiate energy off of fats to a high degree; you simply can't metabolize enough of it.

*Also if you don't have as high of levels of stomach acid the glycemic impact probably won't be nearly as quick.

*Some people are much, much, better at absorbing carbohydrates and don't need to eat much at all, but some of these people (say antigen A) still need some. They term it sometimes in the medical feel about being a hyper-absorber, but it's mostly ignored.

*Avoiding carbohydrates short term may help you not die from metabolic syndrome related to anything like cardio system, lack of dietary nutrients, etc. However the cardiovascular system often needs some in order to keep itself repaired, as well. In mice they die without some, but they have considerably faster acting systems with livers that can't deal with the circumstances prevented on a high protein only diet so they don't represent everyone, just a consequence.

[Early B.]

Much of our diet is common sense. For instance, dairy products are not designed for human consumption. Why the hell would we choose to drink cow's milk???? Besides, to drink milk, it requires doing a bunch of unnatural stuff to it.

In nature, form follows function. A simple study of the human anatomy will make it apparent what the natural foods of man are.

One more thing -- there's a ton of recent misinformation about grains on the internet. Again, use common sense. In many parts of the world, grains have been a dietary staple for thousands of years (Asians and rice, for example).  Which one of you is gonna tell half the world's population that grains have suddenly become bad for them? The problem arises when a handful of people have issues with a certain kind of food, and it goes viral and all of a sudden, it's a bad thing. A good example is this gluten-free thing. Just nonsense.

[RDavidson]

And that is where we disagree.  But arguing online is a bit futile.  The proof is in results.  I invite you to give it a try.  30 days only.  See how you feel by the end.  I'd be willing to bet that a lot of things improve.  Just from myself and the people I know, things like GERD/Acid reflux get better, weight loss occurs (without calorie restriction), blood pressure drops, Triglycerides plummet, HDL goes up, sleep improves, mood improves, you stop snoring, seasonal allergies improve. 

I don't think Sugar/Grains/Dairy CAUSE these conditions.  I think people already are prone to them and the Sugar/Grains/Dairy simply make them worse.  Again, just try it, what's the harm?  30 days is pretty doable.  If you do, I'd love to hear your experience.

Let's consider something here, as it's not like you or your friends conducted a controlled study. Many dairy products are processed quite a bit. Many dairy products have a lot of added sugars (yogurt and ice cream especially). Many grain based products are also processed and contain added sugars as well as other simple carbs as well as preservatives. Are you positive that removing these things from your diet and feeling better is a direct consequence of just removing grains and dairy from your diet, or do you think it might at least also be correlated with removing these somewhat elusive sources of sugars, simple carbs and preservatives, and replacing them natural whole foods (more fruits, veggies, animal proteins etc)? This is what I really question. By targeting the bigger picture, you subsequently take care of the underlying issue.