[Captainhemo]

Hi Jay,

Two ways to look at it:

You are correct - with less power you could reach clipping (think square waves - not the best for tweeters). 

But I *think* brh is concerned if he ever had a surge of some sort (e.g. your child maxes out the volume or something crazy that causes the amp to unload full power), a lower power amp will output less max power (less likely to blow the speaker). 

Vinnie

Thanks Vinnie,
I get the  clipping aspect,  just wasn't sure if I was missing something which I guess I was,  hadn't considered the issue of having the amp rolled on to full power by accident, was thinkinging that possibly  brh was assuming by having less power he was protecting his speakers in  everyday operation.

-jay

[nnck]

Just a couple of quick questions. I dont think these were covered, but I may have missed it.

Is the tubestage used with the line inputs only? That is, is it utilized when using the phone inputs? Or the Dac input, for that matter?

Can you plug more than one component into the DAC inputs? And if so, how do you switch between the DAC inputs?

Thanks. This is an interesting product.

[Vinnie R.]

Just a couple of quick questions. I dont think these were covered, but I may have missed it.

Is the tubestage used with the line inputs only? That is, is it utilized when using the phone inputs? Or the Dac input, for that matter?

Can you plug more than one component into the DAC inputs? And if so, how do you switch between the DAC inputs?

Thanks. This is an interesting product.

Hi nnck,

Good questions!

>>Is the tubestage used with the line inputs only? That is, is it utilized when using the phone inputs? Or the Dac input, for that matter?

First, switch the word input in your question to OUTPUT, so it reads:

Q: Is the tubestage used with the line OUTPUTS only? That is, is it utilized when using the phone OUTPUTS? Or the Dac OUTPUT, for that matter?

A: It can be used with both, actually! You can order a dac (or phonostage) with tube output stage.  It would follow the dac or phono.  If you use it as a linestage (when you use it with the stepped attenuator volume control board), it goes AFTER the volume.  This would be active preamp.

So you can do this:

DAC > RCA OUTPUTS
DAC > TUBESTAGE > RCA OUTPUTS
DAC > VOLUME > TUBESTAGE > RCA OUTPUTS

Same with phono.

And if you go with a headphone or speaker amp outputs, it looks like this:

DAC > VOLUME > TUBESTAGE > AMP (but there are still fixed and volume controlled RCA output jacks to use).  You can turn OFF
the power amp output stage from the front panel (mute), so you can just use it as a headphone amp or preamp.

The mute to the power amp output stage does NOT add any circuity in the signal path.  We just shunt the inputs of the MOSFETS to GND,
which mutes the signal going into the MOSFETS - so NO output on the speaker posts.  How cool is that!?? 

>>Can you plug more than one component into the DAC inputs? And if so, how do you switch between the DAC inputs?

YES - You can plug in 3 digital sources:  USB, COAX, TOSLINK (optical).

The front panel of the LIO has a SOURCE knob (the left knob) to select through your sources.  You can also do this via the included
remote handset, or even via the bluetooth App for your smart phone / tablet.  (Apps still in the works, but hope to have completed end of year.  They will be FREE downloads from Apple App Store and  Google Play (for Android).  Again, how cool is that?!!!! 

Hope this helps,

Vinnie

[nnck]

Q: Is the tubestage used with the line OUTPUTS only? That is, is it utilized when using the phone OUTPUTS? Or the Dac OUTPUT, for that matter?

A: It can be used with both, actually! You can order a dac (or phonostage) with tube output stage.  It would follow the dac or phono.  If you use it as a linestage (when you use it with the stepped attenuator volume control board), it goes AFTER the volume.  This would be active preamp.

So you can do this:

DAC > RCA OUTPUTS
DAC > TUBESTAGE > RCA OUTPUTS
DAC > VOLUME > TUBESTAGE > RCA OUTPUTS

Same with phono.

Vinnie- Thanks for the clarification and the detailed response.

I think I understand all of what your saying, but just to be certain - The tubestage you speak of can only be chosen for a single (1) of those options you mention - is this correct? Either you chose to have the tubestage follow one of the DAC or phono stages (in which case, the tubestage is not utilized when you switch to one of your other sources coming from the linestage), or you simply use it in the linestage AFTER the volume (in which case all sources plugged into the LIO- DAC, phono, and line outputs ALL go through the tubestage).

That was the real intent of my line of questioning anyway. I wanted to know if you use the tubestage with the line outputs, that both the optional DAC and phono outputs would have their signals go through the tubestage as well.

[brh]

Not bashing here, just  hoping for some clarification...
Isn't this (less power =  more protection  for your speakers) a bit of a misonception  ?    I'd  think that with less power it would be much more lilely to push an amp to the point of clipping than it would be with  one rated at higher power than  your speakers.
I'm not sure how clipping occurs with Mosfet amps but with typical SS amps clipping is usually considered "hard" and can be very damaging to speakers 

-jay

Thanks for the response/concern... you are correct, but so is Vinnie with regard to my concerns... I feel like I've just had very bad luck with volume controls over the course of my life, and have more recently attempted to keep my amp and speakers fairly well matched as far as power is concerned. I'm not really sure it's wise, which is the likelier means of destruction here... I just know how I've blown speakers in the past!

[brh]

Hi brh,

Thanks for all your interest and feedback! 

[Answers to all of my questions]

Thanks for the answers, Vinnie! I have more questions - like how do I rearrange my desk to fit this thing on it, and should I sell or hold on to my Sig 16 for posterity - but these are questions only I can answer

I do have a couple of follow-ups, though. In line with trying to make space, are the feet necessary for thermal management? I see that the top plate of the case doesn't appear to be vented, though the back panels are.

Also - and I absolutely don't mean this to come off as argumentative, I'm just curious (nosy?) - when you say that you're moving to a factory-direct model, weren't the RWA products always available directly from you? Was there just also another distribution layer that affected prices across the board? I try my hardest to only buy from companies that sell direct, which was one thing that drew me to RWA in the first place. Either way, glad you're going this route - nothing about the traditional dealer network strategy has ever really worked well for me.

Also going to just go ahead and second the idea that clear top plates somewhere down the line would be pretty amazing. Alright, back to playing with configurations on the product page... 

[Vinnie R.]

Vinnie- Thanks for the clarification and the detailed response.

I think I understand all of what your saying, but just to be certain - The tubestage you speak of can only be chosen for a single (1) of those options you mention - is this correct? Either you chose to have the tubestage follow one of the DAC or phono stages (in which case, the tubestage is not utilized when you switch to one of your other sources coming from the linestage), or you simply use it in the linestage AFTER the volume (in which case all sources plugged into the LIO- DAC, phono, and line outputs ALL go through the tubestage).

That was the real intent of my line of questioning anyway. I wanted to know if you use the tubestage with the line outputs, that both the optional DAC and phono outputs would have their signals go through the tubestage as well.

Hi nnck,

To make it easier (more clear), let me try to explain it this way:

If you order the tubestage, it will be in the signal path no matter if you use the dac, phono, preamp, or headphone, or speaker outputs.  The tubestage is used for ALL of them if you order the tubestage.

YES - both the dac and phono output signals will go through the tubestage to the line outputs (if you add the tubestage module). 

I do have a couple of follow-ups, though. In line with trying to make space, are the feet necessary for thermal management? I see that the top plate of the case doesn't appear to be vented, though the back panels are.

The feet are not required for thermal management.  The stock feet (rubber) will be 5/8" tall and screwed into place via 8-32 screws.  You can remove them if you wish.  For those who love Stillpoints feet, their Ultra Minis have an 8-32 thread and can be used.  [More on that later].

Also - and I absolutely don't mean this to come off as argumentative, I'm just curious (nosy?) - when you say that you're moving to a factory-direct model, weren't the RWA products always available directly from you? Was there just also another distribution layer that affected prices across the board? I try my hardest to only buy from companies that sell direct, which was one thing that drew me to RWA in the first place. Either way, glad you're going this route - nothing about the traditional dealer network strategy has ever really worked well for me.

Red Wine Audio uses a "hybrid model."  We have some dealers / distributors, but for those who don't have access them them, we sell direct
with a 30-day refund policy.

Vinnie Rossi will ONLY be selling factory-direct, throughout the world. 

Also going to just go ahead and second the idea that clear top plates somewhere down the line would be pretty amazing. Alright, back to playing with configurations on the product page... 

Clear top plates will definitely come down the line. 

The configurations page and entire website in general will also get updated (improved) with time, but hopefully this is a good start. 

Vinnie

[jtwrace]

Vinnie Rossi will ONLY be selling factory-direct, throughout the world. 
Vinnie

And it must be known that pre orders will receive free shipping anywhere in the world and the 30 money back is still active.   

[Vinnie R.]

And it must be known that pre orders will receive free shipping anywhere in the world and the 30 money back is still active.   

This is correct - and next week we'll be opening it up to pre-orders.  If you are on our mailing list, you will be notified first.  If not, I highly recommend you sign up:

http://vinnierossi.us2.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=8732927ed821bd32f5f0fca4b&id=031c47d651

Why?  Because via our email list, you will be the first to learn about:

- The new things that we'll be working on
- Latest news and reviews
- Watch the newest LIO videos

[NOTE:  I will NEVER, EVER sell out your email to anyone.    And you can easily unsubscribe at any time.  The mailing list
is the best way for me to reach out to our customers and those who are interested in all the updates on what we are up to.  There
are some really exciting things in the works! ]

More soon...

Vinnie

[brh]

Thanks again for all the answers, Vinnie — I came up with one more question… I'm not going to order mine with a headphone amp right off the bat, but I know I will eventually. Is there one standard face plate with some kind of filler where the headphone jack would go, or will I be able to specifically order the headphone faceplate in anticipation of picking up that module in the future, or…?

[CarterB]

There has been lots of discussion about the power and existing modules but not as much about possible future modules. When trying to think of possible wants in the  future, I thought of a wireless streaming module to keep the computer away from the DAC and maybe a DSP equalizer with possible room correction type software. Anyone else have something they might want to see in a module? Though I'd take the existing modules over these ideas for now.

If another useful module was added for the future and you already maxed out your five slots, I guess you'd have to get another case for the amp?

Speaking of which, is it possible to get an amp only (no volume) version? I am relatively happy with my pre right now but my amp needs an upgrade. Long term when funds appear I'd turn the amp into an integrated with the modules.

[jtwrace]

The LIO does have bluetooth capability.  Or will at some point.

[roscoeiii]

maybe a DSP equalizer with possible room correction type software.

Not sure that Vinnie would have the time for DSP at this point, but there are some options out there that the LIO DC output could power, like the DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0 that I want to try hooking up to the LIO. It also has a digital output so you could still take advantage of the LIO DAC if it turns out you prefer it.

[brh]

There has been lots of discussion about the power and existing modules but not as much about possible future modules. When trying to think of possible wants in the  future, I thought of a wireless streaming module to keep the computer away from the DAC and maybe a DSP equalizer with possible room correction type software. Anyone else have something they might want to see in a module? Though I'd take the existing modules over these ideas for now.

Both things I had thought of as well! Neither are necessarily things I would desire, but an EQ controlled by the app seems like a natural fit, and streaming would be very interesting…

I'd also wondered about different power amps… possibility of other topologies down the line, a higher-powered Class D (again, doesn't really interest me, but an intriguing possibility), some solution for subwoofer output… Fun to speculate!

Speaking of which, is it possible to get an amp only (no volume) version? I am relatively happy with my pre right now but my amp needs an upgrade. Long term when funds appear I'd turn the amp into an integrated with the modules.

This, too, I had wondered about. If there'd be some kind of 'dummy' volume module to allow use as a straight-up power amp. Of course, since the pre stages are passive, maxing it out should get you the same end result, albeit with a price tag for a feature you're not using.

The LIO does have bluetooth capability.  Or will at some point.

I've seen no hints or suggestions that this could/would be used for streaming, though… just remote control…

[TomS]

Not sure that Vinnie would have the time for DSP at this point, but there are some options out there that the LIO DC output could power, like the DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0 that I want to try hooking up to the LIO. It also has a digital output so you could still take advantage of the LIO DAC if it turns out you prefer it.

I would love to see a power output for the Auralic Aries or my Alix Voyage player (12-18vdc, <1A) 

[TomS]

I do love the Slageformer based preamp I have now, but another interesting possibility would be Morten's Tortuga Audio self calibrating LDR.

[christopher3393]

For the first time in human history, you can now place an order for the LIO. Free shipping, both ways if you return, for pre-orders until Dec. 1.. No business affiliation of any sort here. Go to the site, which has already been linked above.

Vinnie, I'll be in touch. Need to ask a few particulars (like how you think 25w will work with Harbeth 30.1 on orchestral music, I sit near-field or midfield). But I do know the proof is in the listening. So, will tube recommendations remain the same? I'd like to have upgrade tubes on hand for the 30 days. Just seems like the smart thing.

[Vinnie R.]

Here we go!

LIO Pre-order details:

http://vinnierossi.com/early-adopter-promo-details/

And some feedback from RMAF posted on our blog:

http://vinnierossi.com/lio-wows-attendees-press-rmaf-2014/

As for all your questions, let's do it!

Thanks again for all the answers, Vinnie — I came up with one more question… I'm not going to order mine with a headphone amp right off the bat, but I know I will eventually. Is there one standard face plate with some kind of filler where the headphone jack would go, or will I be able to specifically order the headphone faceplate in anticipation of picking up that module in the future, or…?

There is only one face plate (with two different colors options), and they both have the XLR jack for the headphone output (which can be an XLR jack that has a 1/4" jack in it, or a 4-pin XLR balanced output jack).  The Headphone Amp (HPA) module has both single-ended and balanced outputs - so you just order with the jack of your choice.  You can change it at any time - it is easy!

If you do not need a headphone output module (or don't want it right now), the jack will be in place but it will not connect to anything internally.  It will be nagging you to try one! 

The LIO does have bluetooth capability.  Or will at some point.

It does right now for controls only.  So you can do things like:

- PWR ON/OFF
- Volume UP/DOWN
- BALANCE L/R
- MUTE
- PHONOSTAGE LOADING
- See DAC frequency (of the file being played)
- Change dac filter and absolute phase
- Turn ON/OFF display

(most of these you will also be able to do via the remote control handset as well!).

For those who are interested in Bluetooth streaming, I'm pretty sure this will need to be a separate module that is
dedicated just for audio.

Not sure that Vinnie would have the time for DSP at this point, but there are some options out there that the LIO DC output could power, like the DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0 that I want to try hooking up to the LIO. It also has a digital output so you could still take advantage of the LIO DAC if it turns out you prefer it.

No time for DSP at the moment, but won't rule it out.  For something like that, I would also consider contacting companies like DSPeaker to see if they'd be willing to work with us on a solution that could plug into the LIO.  I will definitely be looking into things like this as well.

some solution for subwoofer output… Fun to speculate!

The LIO does have 3 sets of output jacks (1 set it fixed level, and 2 of them could be volume controlled pre-outs if you order your LIO with volume control).  So you can use this to feed a powered subwoofer, or use the LIO as a preamp (even if you have the MOSFET AMP module, there is a power button on the front panel to turn ON/OFF the speaker amp stage).  So lots of possibilities!

As for different built-in amplifier modules - yes, good ideas! 

I would love to see a power output for the Auralic Aries or my Alix Voyage player (12-18vdc, <1A) 

I'm looking into an output voltage jack for the LIO now - we'll see...

I am also definitely looking into another product design (separate unit) like a Black Lightning power supply, but using our PURE-DC-4EVR supply that is in the LIO, and it being able to supply multiple, linear-regulated output voltages (and with the ability for someone to adjust them as there requirements change).  More on that later!

I do love the Slageformer based preamp I have now, but another interesting possibility would be Morten's Tortuga Audio self calibrating LDR.

For now, the two volume control options are the AVC (Slagelformers), and a resistor stepped attenuator type (RVC).  Each gives 63 steps of attenuation + mute, and balance.

Balance control feature does NOT add any additional circuitry in the signal path.  It simple offsets one channel on the volume control by a 1, 2, 3... steps compared to the other - based on how you set it via the remote control handset. 

There has been lots of discussion about the power and existing modules but not as much about possible future modules. When trying to think of possible wants in the  future, I thought of a wireless streaming module to keep the computer away from the DAC and maybe a DSP equalizer with possible room correction type software. Anyone else have something they might want to see in a module? Though I'd take the existing modules over these ideas for now.

Yes!  Very cool and if there is enough interest in the future, I'll be looking into future modules like these as well.  I like these ideas and all your feedback, so keep it coming!

If another useful module was added for the future and you already maxed out your five slots, I guess you'd have to get another case for the amp?

Some modules can actually stack on top of each other, so there should be room to grow I believe.   

Speaking of which, is it possible to get an amp only (no volume) version? I am relatively happy with my pre right now but my amp needs an upgrade. Long term when funds appear I'd turn the amp into an integrated with the modules.

Yes!  And it can be just the MOSFET AMP module, or the tubestage in front of the MOSFET Amp module.  No need to add the volume control if you just want the tube input stage in front, and you can add the volume later if you no longer want to use your preamp.

Vinnie, I'll be in touch. Need to ask a few particulars (like how you think 25w will work with Harbeth 30.1 on orchestral music, I sit near-field or midfield). But I do know the proof is in the listening. So, will tube recommendations remain the same? I'd like to have upgrade tubes on hand for the 30 days. Just seems like the smart thing.

The LIO will give you a clean 35wpc into the 6-ohm Harbeths and does a really good job with them!  I've tested LIO with P3ESRs, SHL5plus,
30.1 and 40.1 models.  You're in for a treat! 

----

Keep the great questions coming, everyone!  That is what this is all about and I appreciate hearing from you and what you'd be interested in -
so thank you!

Vinnie

[brh]

[…]
So, will tube recommendations remain the same? I'd like to have upgrade tubes on hand for the 30 days. Just seems like the smart thing.

Good point… Ordered mine this afternoon, didn't even occur to me I should figure out what tubes to have at the ready… Only 6v on this one, eh? Hmmm…

As for all your questions, let's do it!
[…]

Answers appreciated as always, Vinnie!

[Vinnie R.]

Good point… Ordered mine this afternoon, didn't even occur to me I should figure out what tubes to have at the ready… Only 6v on this one, eh? Hmmm…

Answers appreciated as always, Vinnie!

Hi brh,

Thanks for your pre-order today!

This first LIO Tubestage offering will be 6922 family only, with 6.3V heater.  Heater supply is constant current regulated at 330mA. 

Stock tubes will probably be JJ E88CC (I've had pretty good experience with them over the years, and they are my favorite sounding of the 'basic' new production tubes). 

LIO Tubestage design has 0dB/12dB (like RWA Isabella), but is an improved upon circuit with constant current sourcing and other refinements that make it our best one yet!  But I have found that when tube rolling, I am getting the same kind of changes with the tubes that I listed in the "LFP-V Tube Rolling thread" on this forum - so this could help guide some of you on what direction you might want to go with tubes.  I suspect that at least 50% of you will be more-than-happy with the stock tubes in this new circuit! 

Vinnie