[HenryK]

Is the AVC always superior to RVC with or without tube stage ?

I'm thinking of going with RVC without tube stage and upgrading to AVC later.
This still gives me option of tube stage later if I change my mind about AVC,

The problem is RVC and tube stage plus matched pair of tubes is getting close to AVC price, hence my original question.

[brh]

Hi brh,

Thanks for your pre-order today!

Thank you for taking such a reasonable approach to high-end audio! Honestly, I'm not one for upgrade-itis, and I didn't expect to replace my Sig 16 after a year and a half by any means... But LIO really looks like a game-changer in a lot of ways, it's very exciting!

Stock tubes will probably be JJ E88CC (I've had pretty good experience with them over the years, and they are my favorite sounding of the 'basic' new production tubes). 
[...]
But I have found that when tube rolling, I am getting the same kind of changes with the tubes that I listed in the "LFP-V Tube Rolling thread" on this forum - so this could help guide some of you on what direction you might want to go with tubes.  I suspect that at least 50% of you will be more-than-happy with the stock tubes in this new circuit! 

The JJs are great tubes considering their availability and price point, but... you have to have a present waiting when a baby is born, right? 
So on that note... in the 'LFP-V Tube Rolling thread,' you said that driver-grade is fine when ordering from Upscale, I assume this still holds true for LIO?

[Vinnie R.]

Is the AVC always superior to RVC with or without tube stage ?

I'm thinking of going with RVC without tube stage and upgrading to AVC later.
This still gives me option of tube stage later if I change my mind about AVC,

The problem is RVC and tube stage plus matched pair of tubes is getting close to AVC price, hence my original question.

Without the tubestage, the AVC is superior to the RVC.  RVC is excellent (very precise, very clean layout, much better than any potentiometer), but AVC is even better! 

To learn more about what an AVC is and what makes it special, please check out the site of 'the man,' David Slagle, who hand-winds them:

http://www.intactaudio.com/atten_FAQ.html

And 'the man,' John Chapman, whom I have been working with on these:

http://bentaudio.com/index2.html

These guys have developed something really special with their AVC, and I am very fortunate to be able to integrate all of their hard work into a
LIO module option!

With RVC + Tubestage (vs. AVC) I do not find that one is better than the other.  As I responded to Srajan of 6moons:

I don't see one as better than the other. They simply have different flavours. For super transparency and neutrality, the AVC is hard to beat. For more meat on the bones of tonal richness, density and a greater sense of space albeit at the expense of some transparency and speed, the RVC plus tube stage are the way to go. Some customers in fact might want to have both and change things up every now and then; or as they change their system (e.g. different modules will work best with different speakers or headphones)."

For those who are not sure, you can buy both and keep the one you prefer, and return the other within 30 days for a full refund.

But LIO really looks like a game-changer in a lot of ways, it's very exciting!

Thank you!  I share all your excitement with LIO and plan to offer truly amazing circuits for it down the road.  There are so many
possibilities - including some top-secret ones     

So on that note... in the 'LFP-V Tube Rolling thread,' you said that driver-grade is fine when ordering from Upscale, I assume this still holds true for LIO?

Yes - absolutely!  In my experience,  no need to spend more than that. 

In time, I am going to start up a whole new "LIO tube rolling" thread.  And down the road, I'm sure you guys would like to see another LIO Tubestage option using different tubes, right?     Like I said, this is going to be a ton of fun! 

Vinnie

[jtwrace]

For those who are not sure, you can buy both and keep the one you prefer, and return the other within 30 days for a full refund.

...or buy both and swap for the flavor of the hour, day, month or year.   

[Vinnie R.]

...or buy both and swap for the flavor of the hour, day, month or year.   

That's what I'm doing! 

[HenryK]

...or buy both and swap for the flavor of the hour, day, month or year.   

Or maybe a LIO+ that can carry both/more modules ?

[jtwrace]

Or maybe a LIO+ that can carry both/more modules ?

with a switch?

[brj]

Perhaps I missed it, but are the modules user installable?  Or would the LIO need to be shipped back?  Or does the answer change depending on the specific module?

(In my case, I'm curious about a user-install of the still-on-the-drawing-board DC power-out module that could run a digital streamer, ala a Squeezebox Touch.)

Thanks!

[roscoeiii]

Perhaps I missed it, but are the modules user installable?  Or would the LIO need to be shipped back?  Or does the answer change depending on the specific module?

IIRC, the modules are user-installable. Vinnie will of course correct me if I am wrong (wouldn't be the first time).

[Vinnie R.]

Perhaps I missed it, but are the modules user installable?  Or would the LIO need to be shipped back?  Or does the answer change depending on the specific module?

(In my case, I'm curious about a user-install of the still-on-the-drawing-board DC power-out module that could run a digital streamer, ala a Squeezebox Touch.)

Thanks!

Hi brj,

The modules are user installable.  The idea here is that you would NOT need to ever send LIO back for added features or upgrades.  We would send the module to YOU, and you get 30 days (return policy) to make sure you are 100% happy with it.  If not, send it back (again, no need to send your LIO back).

In the next month or so, I'll be posting videos that show how easy the process is.  With thumbscrews, you don't even need a screwdriver.   

There is no need to purchase more modules at the beginning, as you can buy them later and the price per module does not change if you buy now, or later.  So you don't need to make those decisions until you are ready.  Start out with what you are interested in and what your budget allows for.  See how you like the LIO - the sound, the built quality, the level of customer support, etc.  Then you can later decide to try adding in more features that you might need, or upgrades that come out later on. 

Let's make up some example scenarios

 --- You are interested in a LIO configured as an integrated amp.  You already have a dac.  You might later want to get a turntable.  You connect your dac to the LIO via the analog inputs.  Whenever you want, you can try the LIO DSD/PCM dac module.  You plug it in and compare to what you have.  You have 30 days to decide if you want to return it for a full refund, or keep it and put your dac up for sale.  Then let's say a few months from then, you start researching turntables and find the one for you.  At that point, you can buy the LIO Phonostage module (and perhaps one from another company with a refund policy, so you can compare them over 30 days).  Same thing - keep the one that you like better, return the other.  Later on, you family grows and you have a newborn.  It's harder to play music in the home when the baby is trying to sleep.  You get into headphone listening and need a headphone amplifier.  You simply add the LIO Headphone Amplifier module and you are ready to go! 

The beauty of LIO is how it eliminate components at you populate it, it also eliminates interconnects, the need for any power conditioning / power cables / dedicated mains, and internally, the signal paths between modules are optimized to be short as possible.  When you add modules, we don't have to duplicate another enclosure with another user interface, power supply, remote, etc. - so you don't have to pay all the added cost for that.  And shipping you the module that you decide to add later is also going to be much easier (smaller package, less weight, much less concern about damage, much lower cost to ship).

Over time when the next generation modules come out, you do NOT have to send LIO back for upgrade if you are interested in trying it.  So now you can actually try the upgrade and decide for yourself if it is worth the cost (30-day refund policy).  In the past, you had to send in your component to me for upgrade.  You had to pack up your component, ship it, insure it, wait a few weeks for it to come back, etc.  Not anymore!  With LIO - we send you the upgrade and you are not without your music.  You install it in minutes - without even a screwdriver needed.  And since I don't have to take your component apart to upgrade it - you don't have to pay all the extra labor expense.  You just buy the module - done!

Let's say something happens.  A module gets damaged (e.g. the amp was accidentally shorted and blew a channel).  We send YOU the replacement and you repair it very quickly, and then send back the damaged one.  You don't have to send the unit in for repair.

Hopefully, everyone is starting to get the idea! 

Let me wrap this up by saying that these scenarios came easy to me whip up because in the last 10 years of running Red Wine Audio (and I cannot believe it has been 10 years already!!!  ), these are EXACTLY what I have seen numerous times.  And I have to confess that it was not really me who really came up with the idea behind LIO - it was many of YOU.  Over the years of posting here on audiocircle, emails, phone calls, talking to you at the audio shows - I have been doing my best to listen and understand how to do things better and better.  This is why I am very thankful for all of you - your business, your support and believing in me, your feedback, your enthusiasm!  It pushes me to improve and make product that not only sounds better and better, but also delivers better functionality, better build quality, better reliability, and a better overall experience for the listener.  And it's been both a lot hard work and a lot of fun along the way.  So here's to another 10 years of working with you!

Thank you,

Vinnie

[Vinnie R.]

All,

Just a quick note on materials finishes:

- Front panel and sides are CNC-machined and finely brushed DuPont Corian (If we used all metal, the range for Bluetooth control would be severely limited). 

The "silver" option for Corian is not quite the same silver that you'd see with aluminum. It is more like a silver-ish / whitish / gray, but it sure looks great against the knobs, silk screen, and top plate!  But just for clarification, it is not quite as silver looking as the top panel or knobs (if you get them in the silver option).

- The Top panel (which slides open/closed via a groove in the side panels) is brushed aluminum (black, or silver)

- The bottom and rear is black, powder-coated aluminum.  Bottom is thick enough and also used for heatsinking many linear voltage regulators.

- Knobs are anodized aluminum (black or silver).

- Feet are black rubber, and screwed on via 8-32 screws.  There will also be an option to add StillPoints feet later for those who want to try (30-day money back guarantee on this as well when we offer it).

- I'll take pics of the external power adapter (included) soon.  It does accept a standard IEC power cord.  There is absolutely no reason to use an audiophile-approved power cable, or any power conditioning with it, as there will be 0% benefit since the LIO runs ALL audio-related circuitry 100% isolated from the grid.   

Remote control handset (included) is black anodized aluminum, will have our logo, and has functions for:
- PWR On/Off
- Display mode
- Mute
- Vol Up/Down
- Balance L/R
- Input select
- Phonostage loading
- Dac Phase (0 or 180)
- Dac Filter (soft roll-off, or standard)

Once we get all parts in for production (hoping to start end of November), we'll have a big photoshoot to get lots of pictures of the inside, outside, etc.  And more Videos showing how the modules get installed and more info about LIO in general.

- Vinnie

[christopher3393]

Hi Vinnie, Wondering about the dac module. I've read the info. Is this pretty much the same as the previous Pro dac option with the addition of dsd? Any additional details would be helpful.

[rollypolly]

Well, i just pulled the trigger on one of these puppies.

The power supply, from an electrical engineering perspective, is absolutely brilliant  .  Look Ma, NO BATTERIES! And I'm off the grid! WOW, just frick'in WOW! Vinnie, choosing to go with the Slagle's autoformers puts the LIO at the top of the heap as a passive preamp. Everything else, with the various audio component modules, is just icing on the cake.

Looking forward to having this feed my various DHT SET & PP amps.

Cheers!
Rolly

PS: Are there any more details on the DAC module such as the chip that is being used, or if it will support DXD?

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Vinnie, Wondering about the dac module. I've read the info. Is this pretty much the same as the previous Pro dac option with the addition of dsd? Any additional details would be helpful.

Hi christopher3393,

It is an entirely new design unlike anything we've done before.  Here are some details:

- Accepts PCM sampling rates from 44.1kHz to 384kHz (16, 24, or 32 bit compatible), and DSD64, DSD128 via USB 2.0 input.
- Accepts up to 24/192k PMC via the SPDIF inputs.
- Dual-Mono design, with independent d/a converter chips per channel (Asahi Kasei AK4399)
- Sample rates are viewable from LIO's front panel display
- 3 digital inputs - selectable via front panel and remote handset
- Asynchronous, integer-mode USB functionality
- Selectable PHASE (normal and inverted) and FILTER (normal, and minimum phase) settings via remote handset (and the LIO app coming soon).
- On-board re-clocking circuitry considerably reduces jitter
- Galvanic isolation used for oscillator and re-clocking circuitry
- Ultra-low noise, linear voltage regulators used for each section
- USB and SPDIF (both 75-ohm BNC coaxial and optical) input jacks. 
- Swappable daughter board that contains the d/a converter chips and analog output stage – so you can easily upgrade performance as new technologies become available in the future.
- Output impedance: < 100 ohm
- Output voltage: 2Vrms

The LIO dac has no problem keeping up with our RWA-Z1ES-3 (level 3) modded Sony player - it is that good! 
And for the cost to add it into a LIO - it becomes a total no-brainer.  Compare it to any other dac that is many times the cost, and then decide if it is a keeper.   


Hi Rolly,

Welcome - and thank you for your pre-order and comments above!  LIO makes for one very fine "passive" preamp when using the AVC module.  The cool thing about the AVC module that you ordered is that at the lower volume settings, it steps-down voltage (attenuates), but at the same time steps-up current, so you get really good drive at lower volume levels.  And at the higher levels, it steps-up voltage to you get up to 7dB gain (like you would with an active preamp).  The balance control is also a great feature (that does not add ANY additional circuitry).  You are going to love it!

Thanks again!

Vinnie

[brh]

[…] The cool thing about the AVC module that you ordered is that at the lower volume settings, it steps-down voltage (attenuates), but at the same time steps-up current, so you get really good drive at lower volume levels.  And at the higher levels, it steps-up voltage to you get up to 7dB gain (like you would with an active preamp). […]

That's very interesting… I've tried to read up on what makes an autoformer special for volume control, and never found as clear of an answer as this. It makes sense now that it's been explained, but I don't think I would've put that all together on my own even with the other explanations I've read… so thanks for that!

[Vinnie R.]

Hi brh,

To learn more about what an AVC is and what makes it special, please check out the site of 'the man,' David Slagle, who hand-winds them:

http://www.intactaudio.com/atten_FAQ.html

And 'the man,' John Chapman, whom I have been working with on these:

http://bentaudio.com/index2.html

These guys have developed something really special with their AVC, and I am very fortunate to be able to integrate all of their hard work into a
LIO module option!

Vinnie

[Sam73]

Hello Vinnie,

I´m from Germany and i have a question about taxes when i buy the Lio. When i receive the lio i had to pay the taxes. Once paid it is very difficult to get the tax back when i want to send back the Lio.
I know there is a way that Firms pay the taxes and the customer pays the full Price with taxes.

Wich way will you go?

If i buy a Lio in early next year, i want to have a brand new one, and not one used from your 30 Day return policy. How will you handle this ?

Greetings from Germany...



   

[jtwrace]

Hi brh,

To learn more about what an AVC is and what makes it special, please check out the site of 'the man,' David Slagle, who hand-winds them:

http://www.intactaudio.com/atten_FAQ.html

And 'the man,' John Chapman, whom I have been working with on these:

http://bentaudio.com/index2.html

These guys have developed something really special with their AVC, and I am very fortunate to be able to integrate all of their hard work into a
LIO module option!

Vinnie

Can you do a fully balanced unit? 

[Vinnie R.]

I´m from Germany and i have a question about taxes when i buy the Lio. When i receive the lio i had to pay the taxes. Once paid it is very difficult to get the tax back when i want to send back the Lio.
I know there is a way that Firms pay the taxes and the customer pays the full Price with taxes.

Wich way will you go?

Hi Sam73,

Please email me directly regarding this:  vinnie@vinnierossi.com

I can help you with this.

If i buy a Lio in early next year, i want to have a brand new one, and not one used from your 30 Day return policy. How will you handle this ?

Unless you order a used / demo unit (not even available at this time), you would only receive a brand new unit.  In other words, if/when we receive a return, these will be sold at some level of discount for not being brand new (but they will still be sold with full warranty and refund policy).

All the best,

Vinnie

[Vinnie R.]

Can you do a fully balanced unit?

Hi jtwrace,

Early next year, I will be looking into offering Balanced (XLR) LIO INPUTS and LIO OUTPUTS modules as options for those who
will be interfacing with equipment that has BAL in / outs. 

Thanks,

Vinnie