[AJinFLA]

Assuming you're not likely to actually try to listen objectively to an alternative fuse to decide if there's a sound difference

Well, that makes both of us. 
Although for entirely different reasons. Unless you are suggesting your listening will be blind/controlled?
Please do share your preferred objective listening method.

how about you enlighten the grotesquely misinformed about some of the OBJECTIVE reasons why a change in material / construction of a fuse can't make a difference in the sound quality of a component?

I most certainly wouldn't try to prove a negative and on the same token, unburden you from the proof of plausibility that scam fuses "in the current path" might correlate to sound quality. Physics/EE type evidence within known perceptual thresholds would suffice, in lieu of straight up perceptual data. I'm definitely open minded about that sort of thing, as should you be.

cheers,

AJ

[fastfred]

Roger A. Modjeski
Facilitator
 
Posts: 927
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Re: Tuning Fuses
« Reply #38 on: Today at 02:51 am »
Quote
Giving this a bump since we are at it again. Please vote. At the time of this writing there are 44 votes.

I received this from Roger this morning & am bringing it to this thread once more as there is a survey on the tuning fuses post

at the top of Music Reference Circle page 1.

[Davey]

It would seem obvious/logical to take a handful of these fuses and subject them to some objective destructive testing to see how they perform in their primary job.  As anyone done this yet?  Maybe I've missed it?

Dave.

[Guy 13]

It would seem obvious/logical to take a handful of these fuses and subject them to some objective destructive testing to see how they perform in their primary job.  As anyone done this yet?  Maybe I've missed it?

Dave.

Hi Dave.
At 50 USD a pop, who's ready (Read, financially wealthy enough) to make an expensive test like that?
I would guess, not even the manufacturer himself is ready to do that test,
otherwise they would brag about it in their advertising/marketing.
They are more concern about sound quality, than safety.

Guy 13

[AJinFLA]

Your correct we don't listen blind

Right, which means all our biases/perceptions are in play. No immunity.

If you look at the opening post in this thread you can see it's really a lament on how the hobby has degenerated to the point where if you say you're an audiophile some people look at you as if you just left hanger 2 at area 51.

Quite frankly I wouldn't care what people think as long as I enjoy my music, plus I don't identify as an audiophile anyway.

I don't want to read about Stein Music Harmonizers, I don't want to read about tuning fuses & bogus sales techniques mixed in with reviews of speaker cables, interconnect, & mains cables. What I want to hear is honesty in reviewing.

Much like those lamenting talk radio blathering, have you considered not tuning in? Perhaps, that is what those who do, want to hear?

Give me the good old meat & potatoes of audio, power amps, integrated amps,
pre/amps, phono pre/amps, turntables, cd, SACD, Multiformat players, Dacs, internet audio.
Perhaps most important of all the music! Reviews of real music not audiophile records although I have some, they sound wonderful, they're wonderfully recorded

Markets are driven by supply and demand.
Start a collection thread for Tyson's ABX box and have vendors start sending him stuff.
I might be hesitant because I suspect he's one of those iso-ward room ultra precision studio pan-pot artificial constructs types and I'm more in the Toole/Olive/Fincham/Linkwitz school. Plus I have my own preferences stated as such.
But it would be a start.

cheers,

AJ

[OzarkTom]

Remember when John Atkinson just couldn't take George Tice's Magic Clock nonsense anymore, and had to reveal it for what it was? Where's John on the Magic Fuses I wonder?

I got in trouble with George Tice when I revealed in my dealer newletter that the Tice Power Blocks degraded the sound quality in your system. I guess one of my customers reported me. George yanked my Tice dealership.

The nerve of him.

[RDavidson]

Perhaps you're only reason for being in this thread is to make prejudiced statements and semantic arguments without feeling the need to provide objective reasons for them.  Saying that people are free to believe whatever they like about something so long as they don't claim some basis on objective truth, is in the end not really saying anything that meaningful at all.

......and perhaps that's the whole point. You can't disprove what someone else senses or perceives. So what is the point of trying to make that person out to be a fool? I'll say this again, there are things in this world that science can not explain and may never be able to explain. Further, there are way too many factors involved to say that a tweak definitely (proven objectively) works 100% in all possible scenarios. I guess that's what makes them tweaks. If they worked 100% of the time in all possible scenarios, they wouldn't be tweaks now would they? That's not to say that I don't believe that some things in this hobby are ridiculous, but as AJ is basically saying, if it works for you (ie makes you happy) then what is the problem, other than the fact that maybe this person got hosed........but it's not your money or time or energy, so really, how can we arrive at a truly meaningful discussion here? I must say, out of all the info in this thread, the point made about Hi Fi Tuning fuses not being UL listed or certified in any way, is enough for me to snub them. That the rags love them (despite the fore mentioned fact) only points out that you should always do your own research and not just buy into what some dude, whom you don't know personally, says.

[jarcher]

Well, that makes both of us. 
Although for entirely different reasons. Unless you are suggesting your listening will be blind/controlled?
Please do share your preferred objective listening method.
I most certainly wouldn't try to prove a negative and on the same token, unburden you from the proof of plausibility that scam fuses "in the current path" might correlate to sound quality. Physics/EE type evidence within known perceptual thresholds would suffice, in lieu of straight up perceptual data. I'm definitely open minded about that sort of thing, as should you be.

cheers,

AJ

Unlike you I haven't come out and declared that fuses can or can't make a sound quality difference.  All I said was that I would be willing to give a listen and decide then.  There's been a few different tweaks that I've demoed lately where either I heard no difference, or only a marginal one to not make it worth investing in.  So I don't by nature have a bias for or against "tweaks".  I try to rely on experience as objectively as I can as opposed to coming at it with preconceived notions, whether based on "objectivity" or "subjectivity".  And if someone put me in front of one of Frank's ABX machines or what not, I'd be happy to do so.  Heck - I'd welcome it.  Would make the evaluation job a lot faster and easier. As much as I'm sure on the basis of it's construction & merit it's worth every penny of the $1K asking price, that's a bit too much of a $ investment for me for my occasional use. 

Why don't you want to make an effort to prove a negative statement you've made?  If "physics/EE type evidence within known perceptual thresholds would suffice", how about you elaborate further? 

Tell you what : I'm going to get one of these fuse things and decide for myself - albeit one with a money back guarantee, then there's really no financial risk. 

In turn, how about you do something more than dodge by trying to actually discuss what the objective scientific reasons are for stating that an "audiophile" fuse can't and won't make a difference in the sound? That shouldn't cost you anything either monetarily. 

[fastfred]

Quote from: jarcher on Today at 08:33 pm
how about you enlighten the grotesquely misinformed about some of the OBJECTIVE reasons why a change in material / construction of a fuse can't make a difference in the sound quality of a component?

Well, that makes both of us. 

Although for entirely different reasons. Unless you are suggesting your listening will be blind/controlled?
Please do share your preferred objective listening method.


I most certainly wouldn't try to prove a negative and on the same token, unburden you from the proof of plausibility that scam fuses "in the current path" might correlate to sound quality. Physics/EE type evidence within known perceptual thresholds would suffice, in lieu of straight up perceptual data. I'm definitely open minded about that sort of thing, as should you be.

cheers,

AJ

I think you're both missing the point!!! have either of you even read the opening post? The concern is audiophile fuses
from 2 different companies being compared for their soundstaging & imaging ability, and the detail improvement when
these fuses were in use. Essentially which company made a better sounding fuse. When the real problem is whether either
product can do it's job as a fuse. The issue is promoting a product which blows up the equipment it's used in!!

Roger originally broached the topic on another post titled Tuning Fuses he began the topic because of an amplifier repair
which had come in. Where the owner of the amp had replaced all the fuses in his amp with tuning fuses. Needless to say
the amp had Chernobled. So I'm wondering if noting the soundstage, the imaging, & the detail of the amp at the point of
eruption is a subjective or an objective action. The gist of the post is irresponsible journalism. How's that for objective?

[jarcher]

......and perhaps that's the whole point. You can't disprove what someone else senses or perceives. So what is the point of trying to make that person out to be a fool? I'll say this again, there are things in this world that science can not explain and may never be able to explain. Further, there are way too many factors involved to say that a tweak definitely (proven objectively) works 100% in all possible scenarios. I guess that's what makes them tweaks. If they worked 100% of the time in all possible scenarios, they wouldn't be tweaks now would they? That's not to say that I don't believe that some things in this hobby are ridiculous, but as AJ is basically saying, if it works for you (ie makes you happy) then what is the problem, other than the fact that maybe this person got hosed........but it's not your money or time or energy, so really, how can we arrive at a truly meaningful discussion here? I must say, out of all the info in this thread, the point made about Hi Fi Tuning fuses not being UL listed or certified in any way, is enough for me to snub them. That the rags love them (despite the fore mentioned fact) only points out that you should always do your own research and not just buy into what some dude, whom you don't know personally, says.

Playing the relativistic card doesn't really advance the conversation: i.e. do what makes you happy, YMMV, yada yada.  I already know that.

But in this case there are claims being made on scientific objective basis for & against these fuses with respect to sound quality, and I want to hear both arguments. But as for the arguments against, so far mostly on this thread I'm only getting invectives against the "snake oil salesman" and appeals to authority and science which are not being substantiated. 

[Davey]

Hi Dave.
At 50 USD a pop, who's ready (Read, financially wealthy enough) to make an expensive test like that?
I would guess, not even the manufacturer himself is ready to do that test,
otherwise they would brag about it in their advertising/marketing.
They are more concern about sound quality, than safety.

Guy 13

Guy,

Yes, you've made my point for me.
You sell a fuse and your primary concern is sound quality vice safety.    How upside down is that? 

It's brilliant marketing and pricing.......I guess.

Dave.

[jarcher]

Quote from: jarcher on Today at 08:33 pm
how about you enlighten the grotesquely misinformed about some of the OBJECTIVE reasons why a change in material / construction of a fuse can't make a difference in the sound quality of a component?

I think you're both missing the point!!! have either of you even read the opening post? The concern is audiophile fuses
from 2 different companies being compared for their soundstaging & imaging ability, and the detail improvement when
these fuses were in use. Essentially which company made a better sounding fuse. When the real problem is whether either
product can do it's job as a fuse. The issue is promoting a product which blows up the equipment it's used in!!

Roger originally broached the topic on another post titled Tuning Fuses he began the topic because of an amplifier repair
which had come in. Where the owner of the amp had replaced all the fuses in his amp with tuning fuses. Needless to say
the amp had Chernobled. So I'm wondering if noting the soundstage, the imaging, & the detail of the amp at the point of
eruption is a subjective or an objective action. The gist of the post is irresponsible journalism. How's that for objective?

I haven't seen enough evidence yet that there is a widespread issue with these fuses not being sufficiently safe.  The moderators one experience is concerning - but one case doesn't make a rule.

How many of the boutique audio products including high power amps have UL listing or independent safety certifications?  And we happily plug those things away and even leave them unattended.  I had one personal experience of flipping the switch on a big Audio Research tube amp with a bad tube, and sparks and FIRE came out as it melted a resistor! And it had fresh standard fuses, which seemed to be no help.  I've heard stories of Parasound Halo amps totally melting down when speaker wires were crossed - and those have standard fuses as well.  Two (or more!) wrongs don't make a right, and I'd certainly feel more comfortable with a UL etc certification on an "audiophile" fuse, but I think you know where I'm going with this. 

Perhaps you are right and the topic of this thread is the SAFETY of "audiophile" fuses.  I had assume that it was also about their potential affect on sound quality, positive, negative, or none. 

[DaveC113]

.......................

[RDavidson]

Playing the relativistic card doesn't really advance the conversation: i.e. do what makes you happy, YMMV, yada yada.  I already know that.

But in this case there are claims being made on scientific objective basis for & against these fuses with respect to sound quality, and I want to hear both arguments. But as for the arguments against, so far mostly on this thread I'm only getting invectives against the "snake oil salesman" and appeals to authority and science which are not being substantiated.

Anyone who can claim scientifically that these tweak fuses can or can't make a difference with 100% certainty either way, for or against, I'd love to see the proof. It wasn't just a relativistic card, I played. As I stated earlier, there are way too many scenarios, which means there'd be way too many testing methodologies involved to even attempt to go about such a study. Where would one start? As this scientific study is likely to never take place, maybe we should stop trying to make a "meaningful discussion" out of a moot point. So basically, what you're getting at is that you want people (the one's with stated science objectivity) to admit that they can't 100% prove or disprove their statement. And what's the point of that? It's all moot.

[jarcher]

We're going have agree to disagree.

Seeing as this post seems to have been a slam on Skoff (and "audiophile" fuses), for the former I direct interested readers to the following from Skoff 

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/1213/skoffing_being_critical.htm

Doesn't sound to me like the writing of someone who doesn't care about customers or wants to fleece them.  Also helps to put the sales technique from the previously posted article / link in context.  I.e. if customers can't best be helped to evaluate what cable they prefer in a typical A/B scenario, why not do a SINGLE blind test and let them decide if they hear something they like?  Obviously not all customers need that : some will be comfortable enough with themselves and their listening skills and know clearly what they want and like that all the salesperson needs to do is the donkey work of swapping cables.

[jarcher]

Anyone who can claim scientifically that these tweak fuses can or can't make a difference with 100% certainty either way, for or against, I'd love to see the proof. It wasn't just a relativistic card, I played. As I stated earlier, there are way too many scenarios, which means there'd be way too many testing methodologies involved to even attempt to go about such a study. Where would one start? As this scientific study is likely to never take place, maybe we should stop trying to make a "meaningful discussion" out of a moot point. So basically, what you're getting at is that you want people (the one's with stated science objectivity) to admit that they can't 100% prove or disprove their statement. And what's the point of that? It's all moot.

I take your point and am not asking / expecting 100% scientific certainty.  Would just appreciate more responses such as the moderators who present points such as "the fuse is too far away from the signal path to make a difference".   There are least is an attempt at a rational explanation.  Feel like I'm spinning my wheels on that attempt though.  Here at AC looking for more reasoned posts than just the usual love / hate spouting you find on too many forums.  There are certainly many people here with the personal experience and technical knowledge to assist in that respect.  At least that's been my experience frequently on other technical questions. 

[bdp24]

I haven't seen enough evidence yet that there is a widespread issue with these fuses not being sufficiently safe.  The moderators one experience is concerning - but one case doesn't make a rule.

How many of the boutique audio products including high power amps have UL listing or independent safety certifications?  And we happily plug those things away and even leave them unattended.  I had one personal experience of flipping the switch on a big Audio Research tube amp with a bad tube, and sparks and FIRE came out as it melted a resistor! And it had fresh standard fuses, which seemed to be no help.  I've heard stories of Parasound Halo amps totally melting down when speaker wires were crossed - and those have standard fuses as well.  Two (or more!) wrongs don't make a right, and I'd certainly feel more comfortable with a UL etc certification on an "audiophile" fuse, but I think you know where I'm going with this. 

Perhaps you are right and the topic of this thread is the SAFETY of "audiophile" fuses.  I had assume that it was also about their potential affect on sound quality, positive, negative, or none.

Re: ARC's blowing up: I brought my brand-spanking-new SP-3 Pre-amp home from my dealer (Walt Davies, now the man who makes the Last products, and a really swell guy) in 1973, plugged it into my system, and turned it on. NyaaangPIFT!!! A resistor blew, and not because of a tube---good, bad, or indifferent. The beginning of my love/hate affair with Audio Research Corporation electronics, soon to be over (guess I'm a slow learner!).

[rbbert]

There were some amazing poorly informed comments about room acoustics and treatments posted earlier in this topic by some people who should know better.  Those interested in more useful information can start with some of these links, although there is lots more technically oriented information if one wants to go beyond the basics (because some of the following links are "white papers" rather than peer-reviewed articles)

http://www.acousticsciences.com//press-room/articles/how-tubetraps-opened-whole-new-realm-precision-performance-audio-playback-systems

http://www.acousticsciences.com/press-room/articles

http://www.rpginc.com/Technology.cfm

http://www.rpginc.com/docs/Technology/White%20Papers/Acoustic%20Diffusers_The%20Good,%20The%20Bad%20and%20The%20Ugly.pdf

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Remember when John Atkinson just couldn't take George Tice's Magic Clock nonsense anymore, and had to reveal it for what it was? Where's John on the Magic Fuses I wonder?

I am working on a letter to JA to hopefully publish. I have had enough of this follishess. I plan to stick to just the facts please. I will go into how these fuses are not suitable for any high breaking application such as tube fuses.

[Roger A. Modjeski]

It would seem obvious/logical to take a handful of these fuses and subject them to some objective destructive testing to see how they perform in their primary job.  As anyone done this yet?  Maybe I've missed it?

Dave.

I have done this. The fuse will offer no protection as a tube fuse in a DC circuit. The wire turns to plasma. I have already explained the process in detail. If you cant find it I will for you.