RM40s + RM30C initial impressions

ctviggen · « **on:** 21 Aug 2004, 02:16 am »

I finally received and unpacked my RM40s and RM30C. They're dainty! . They disappear into the room.

My initial question:

When I went to setup the system in surround sound, I had to up the right RM40 by 3db. Previously, my two speakers were the same. Is there any reason one RM40 would need so much? I listened during testing and could hear each element (tweeter, midranges, woofers) working in that speaker. How can I tell if this is affecting my stereo?

My initial thoughts:

The RM40s are a bit mid-range heavy, which I'm sure will be helped by break-in, better placement, and maybe some room treatments. However, I'm listening to music now and it sounds kick butt.

I may have to biamp the RM30C and drop the RM40s to running off one amp (my Jeff Rowland). Currently, I have the RM40s biamped (JR on highs, two channels of my 5-channel amp on lows), but when I went to set up the surround sound, at 0.0 db (reference level), I only got 81 db at my seat with the center channel (I'm supposed to get 85 db), and that's with the maximum level increase allowed. So, I might have to use two channels of my 5-channel amp so that I can give the RM30C the power it needs. I ended up setting each channel to 81 db vice 85 db.

Having said that, the RM30C is unbelievable. I have it (and my "new" rear speakers, formerly my main speakers) set to crossover at 60Hz, but the bass in the RM30C is fantastic. I had the previous CC crossed over at 80Hz. I listened to Blue Man Group DVD, and the RM30C pumped out the bass (as did the RM40s). It's in a totally different league than the Linn CC I have. I watched part of Shrek and The Matrix, and both sounded great. Because the CC is so huge, there's a wall of sound whereas before there was a gap between the CC and front speakers. Plus, the RM30C does everything better than my precious CC.

Another question: What should be the crossover setting for the RM30C? Can I go to 50 Hz? 40 Hz?

As an aside, it's nice to have full range rear/side speakers when listening to something like the Blue Man Group DVD. The Linns I have were kickin' out the bass.

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Aug 2004, 02:31 am »

Congrats Bob!!

Let them break in for a few weeks first.

After that, play with best placement for bass output.

Next you can play with pots and putty.

As for having different output...I have the same thing. I just adjusted the pot until I had the speakers equal. I am not sure it is necessarily the speaker. When I used my Silverline Sonata II's, I had to adjust slightly via the processor to get them to measure the same. In fact, I have the same issue with my Swan Diva surrounds. Since it happened with multiple speakers I am assuming it is room interaction.

In terms of getting more power to the center...yet another reason to NOT run a center (sorry couldn't resist).

What is your five channel amp doing right now? Can it drive the 40's and 30 center?

If you like, I can try and come up for a visit sometime in Sept.

BTW, I am getting a pair of 40's in African Ebony (just couldn't resist).

George

ctviggen · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Aug 2004, 12:56 pm »

Hi George,

Yeah, they sound great, especially the center channel. I say that just because the difference is amazing between the CCs.

It definitely could be room interaction. On that side of the room, I have fireplace (which I actually wish I didn't have, but that's another story). I guess I could test this out by switching speakers, although I'm hesitant to do this as they're so darn heavy. I was thinking of getting a fancy finish, too, but all my stuff is black, and the speakers actually look matched to my Pioneer Elite TV and stand. So, they look terrific, if a bit large.

I have to say that the finish on all speakers is great, and they came through the shipping process well, even though one of the boxes for the RM40s was crushed.

Roop is going to come up and help me set them up, too. He wanted to be here to unpack them with me, but I'm so busy from now 'till the end of the month that I don't have time to do anything (it's 8:30 am Saturday, and I plan on working 4-5 hours, then cooking for a "party" here, then I'll work all day tomorrow, many hours during the week next week, and at least Sunday of next week!). However, September looks relatively clear, and I'm sure I can use all the help I can get!

Hey! I like having a center channel! I can see in your situation that it probably wouldn't make too much of a difference. If you come up, you can hear what a CC would sound like (although I don't know where you'd put one with your setup). Plus, my current surround processor has the option to select "no CC," but I can't get it to do this for some reason. It keeps saying "that's not a valid cross over combination" or something like that.

I've decided to forego biamping the RM40s and instead biamp the RM30. Currently, the 5-channel Bryston does the bass for the RM40s, the RM30, and the two surrounds. The JR does the mids/highs for the RM40s. I'm going to change to biamping the RM30 and running the JR full range on the RM40s for the following reasons: (1) there's a 3db difference in the output of the Bryston and JR, so I'd have to mess around with the pots to get this right; (2) if I biamp the RM30C using two channels of the Bryston, I don't have to worry about amp mismatch (and I already have the cables to biamp the RM30C); and (3) I paid enough for the darn JR that it should be able to run the RM40s full range, and if it can't, I'm calling up Jeff (Rowland) and complaining! So, the Bryston will run the surrounds and the CC and have one channel left over.

The only bummer is that I gave my fancy, expensive, non-biamping interconnects to my friend (along with a "fancy" power cord) for his birthday. So, this means that I have to order new balanced interconnects (which I did this morning).

Anyway, I'll report more as the system breaks in, and I'm off to do work (oh joy!).

ctviggen · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Aug 2004, 04:31 pm »

Well, I'm an idiot! I didn't take the plastic off the tweeters -- that's why the speakers sounded mid-rangy. I still haven't had a chance to do any critical listening, and won't until next week. However, next week, I'm adding new speaker wire, new ICs, and modifying the system quite a bit, so I'll report back then or after I get some time to listen.

ctviggen · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Aug 2004, 07:25 pm »

I'm sitting here listening to music (a mixture of classical and women so far, although I'm itching to throw in some Big Head Todd) while working on a patent application, and even though I'm not in the sweetspot (or even near it), these speakers are much better than my Linns. The tweeter on the RM40 is sublime and the midrange is dandy. I definitely need to tune the bass (it sounds a bit "slow" to me), but I'll wait until my new cables/ICs are installed and the speakers break in a bit.

ctviggen · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Aug 2004, 09:41 pm »

Well, I'm an idiot (again)! I forgot that the JR is inverted phase but the Bryston is normal phase. So, I had the mids/highs wired out of phase with the lows on the RM40s. I changed this, and it'll remain this way until I receive my new ICs and speaker cables and go the single amp route (except for the CC, which I'll biamp but with two channels of the Bryston).

Bingenito · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Aug 2004, 09:48 pm »

Having fun beating yourself up?

Enjoy the new speakers

Woodsea · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Aug 2004, 10:47 pm »

What a F@(+!#& idiot

. Ok I am a bit envious of your situation. I am sure I would be giddy as hell to have all that beautifully crafted plywood as well. Well, I guess it did just take me 2 hours to finally get video out of my Samsung dvd player

. Talk about livening up my VMPS/AscendAcoustic sextet!!.

ctviggen · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Aug 2004, 12:45 pm »

I've messed around with these speakers some more. I reconfigured the system so that I have my two-channel amp driving the RM40s and I biamped the RM30C. Biamping didn't increase the level of the RM30C, so I might have to adjust the pots one of these days.

Last night, I messed around with positioning of the RM40s and the putty. I didn't spend much time on it, maybe 1/2 hour or so. I pulled the RM40s out from the wall (I have the RM40s next to my 57 inch RPTV with matching stand), thereby moving them toward the listener and away from my TV, and I noticed an immediate improvement. So, I moved them a tad farther into the room and then I messed around with toeing. I toed them in a little farther and it made the sound stage a little better. Now, the speakers cross a little in front of the listener. I also did a minor amount of putty adjustment. I took off about 7 very small pieces of putty from each PR.

I'm going to adjust them more, once I have someone to sit in the sweetspot and give me feedback. I haven't touched the pots, but I ran out of time last night (and a helper will be beneficial here -- perhaps I'll put on a piano CD and let my girlfriend, who plays piano, tell me what sounds better/worse).

Also, I have to say that the speakers sound great out of the box. The RM40s are wonderful, and the RM30C is amazing. I'm comparing these versus Linns, which I really like. It's just that the VMPS speakers are better in every way than the Linns.

jermmd · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Aug 2004, 01:46 pm »

Hey,

Did Roop ever come over to set the speakers up? I'm running RM30's across the front with the L & R speakers biamped and the center on the amps 5th channel. Give your speakers plenty of break in time and they will continue to improve. I initially found the putty/pot adjustments daunting but I kind of like it now. It took me a while before I felt comfortable hearing the difference small adjustments can make. My speakers sound really fantastic now.

By the way, I too left the plastic strip on the tweeters initially. I thought the bass was the problem (too boomy) until I realized it was the lack of treble. Oh well.

I'm nearby in Newtown, CT if you want to get together some time. George (Zybar) helped me set up my speakers and extra ears and hands can really help in getting these speakers to reach their full potential. I'd also like to hear how well the rm40s mate with the rm30c.

Joe

ctviggen · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Aug 2004, 02:19 pm »

Hi Joe,

I told Roop not to come until September because I'm basically working all the time until the end of this month (in fact, it's Sunday morning and I need to get off the computer and start working!). I also meant to say that the three-db increase for the right speaker in HT mode doesn't seem to affect stereo -- most images are in the middle, between the speakers, although this does differ from CD to CD.

That's right -- you're in Newtown! That's not far. Sure, I'd like to come over (or you can come over here). Next weekend might not be possible, as I promised my girlfriend that I'd spend time with her since I'm not spending any time with her this weekend. However, I'll let you know. The RM40/RM30C connection is seemless, better than my Linns. Also, the RM30C has an incredible amount of bass compared to the Linn CC. How did you adjust the CC? The right/left speakers seem to be easy, as you can play music. But I only have one CD of music that would have actual bass in the CC (Blue Man Group). I do have some Stevie Ray DVDs; perhaps I could use them (once I get them back from my friend's)? Anyway, I better get to work!

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Aug 2004, 03:38 pm »

Break em in first before any adjustments...that's where I'm at:)

At first the RM30C sounded really lifeless, so for the time being, I cranked up the bass adjustment all the way and turned up the treble to about 2:00. It helped for the time being.

-Ed

ctviggen · « **Reply #12 on:** 31 Aug 2004, 02:23 pm »

I will definitely do more tuning as time goes on. The RM40s I listen to those a lot; the CC though I only listen to periodically. Perhaps I should put my Blue Man Group DVD in (uses all 5 channels) and just let it play for a while? It's a bit bass and mid heavy, but maybe that's ok. Another thing I could do is put the IC for the CC into a R/L speaker channel and just use my break-in song over and over again.

Marbles · « **Reply #13 on:** 31 Aug 2004, 02:28 pm »

Quote from: ctviggen

I will definitely do more tuning as time goes on. The RM40s I listen to those a lot; the CC though I only listen to periodically. Perhaps I should put my Blue Man Group DVD in (uses all 5 channels) and just let it play for a while? It's a bit bass and mid heavy, but maybe that's ok. Another thing I could do is put the IC for the CC into a R/L speaker channel and just use my break-in song over and over again.

I found the RM30C I had to have a bloated bass when I first got it.. Removing just a little putty really helped. Mine did not need a long break in period. I now have it Xover at 50 hz. It has been run full range and XO at 80 hz. So far full range and 50 hz are my favs.

jermmd · « **Reply #14 on:** 31 Aug 2004, 03:46 pm »

1. I adjusted my center RM30 by simply copying what I had done to my front L and R speakers. I only use the center for movies and it sounds fine.

2. My center image was initially slightly off center with the speaker placed on top of my RPTV (like CTViggen). I had to move the speaker over so that the midrange pannels were directly centered over the picture. Now the image is perfect even if the speaker on the TV is not exactly symmetrical. The bottom woofer enclosure is hanging off the side of the TV.

3. I tried to adjust the pots so they appeard to be at equal levels and the sound was how I wanted it. I then adjusted my right speaker pots slightly up or down in order to exactly image the music I was listening to. In other words, on a CD where I believe the vocals should be coming from the exact center of the stage, I dialed up the midrange pot on my right speaker to move the image slightly to the right of where it was initially. Get it?

Joe M.

By the way, in another thread I think Ribbonspeaker.net is suggesting that the RM30's are the best speaker in the VMPS lineup.

Marbles · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 Aug 2004, 04:05 pm »

Quote from: jermmd

By the way, in another thread I think Ribbonspeaker.net is suggesting that the RM30's are the best speaker in the VMPS lineup. icon_eek.gif ...

I could be wrong, but what I think he's suggesting is that 3 RM30's and 2 VMPS di-pole surrounds and a sub or 2 are better than a PAIR of RM/X's at about the same cost.

ctviggen · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 Aug 2004, 04:24 pm »

Marbles,

My RM30C is crossed over at 60Hz (a number I selected out of the air). In fact, I'm running all my speakers crossed over at 60Hz when in HT mode and the RM40s full range in stereo mode. I did one test (using the shoot-everything scene in the Matrix) with the fronts crossed over at 60Hz or run full range (the CC and surrounds xover at 60Hz) and I think the scene is better having the fronts crossed over. I was waiting for more time to do more of this kind of testing. My speakers are such that I could run them all full range, but I'd bet that some crossover would be beneficial.

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Sep 2004, 01:54 pm »

Quote from: ctviggen

Also, I have to say that the speakers sound great out of the box. The RM40s are wonderful, and the RM30C is amazing.

Bob-

I'm in your same situation!! Got the same speakers (didn't wait for them to be delivered...rented a 14' U-Haul and picked em up at the local trucking hub...

) and am in the process of integrating everything. So, if you find cool crossover points, or other tricks, let me know so I can try 'em! So far, I am just messing around with the 30C pots on dialogue (see my "pots" post).

I also want to get more bass (got my larger sub strapped & crossed over at 60Hz..which seems fine). I think I can draw that extra bass out of my 40s instead of the sub.... The 40s sound AMAZING.

As far as them sounding great out of the box...I agree:) Setting up my whole system was really painless. The speakers get so much better sounding the more they get broken in!!! I leave them on HBO HD all day and it seems to be helping:) Unless I'm losing my mind.....

Hey, just curious...try checking out a movie routing the CC info to your 40's and disabling the 30C. Does it sound better? To me it sounds so much fuller and 3D. I know George uses his 40's as a CC....

I posted pics of everything here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=335

Later-

-Ed

zybar · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Sep 2004, 02:58 pm »

Quote from: sbcgroup1

Bob-

I'm in your same situation!! Got the same speakers (didn't wait for them to be delivered...rented a 14' U-Haul and picked em up at the local trucking hub...) and am in the process of integrating everything. So, if you find cool crossover points, or other tricks, let me know so I can try 'em! So far, I am just messing around with the 30C pots on dialogue (see my "pots" post).

I also want to get more bass (got my larger sub strapped & crossed over at 60Hz..which seems fine). I think I can draw th ...

Ed,

You have some really tough room issues to deal with looking at your pictures (nice looking though).

You have the right speaker next to the untreated wall, your gear is up high and in front of the speakers, and it looks like you are quite close to the speakers themselves (how far apart are they and how far from you?).

Can you do room treatments?

At some point you are still more than welcome to come up and hear my system. This will give you a different reference point of what the speakers sound like.

George

John Casler · « **Reply #19 on:** 3 Sep 2004, 03:03 pm »

Ed,

What a great looking system. Your cabinets look great!!!

The pics tell me a lot, and so a couple suggestions:

1) the LRCs need more tilt. They should be firing either "on axis" or no more then 1 foot over your head. This might explain why the Pinnacles sound like they have more HF energy. The seating position should be "directly" between the LRC's also (again within 1 foot ahead or behind the space between the neopanel and the FST.

2) although it looks like it is firing a little "low", try slightly "tilting" the RM30C to fire directly at you, by slightly raisong the front.

3) you may find that you will need some serious Acoustic Treatment for the right side wall. This would be the "first reflection" spot for the right RM40. I would suggest getting some acoustic foam. 3" x 24" x 48" wedge should work. Place it behind the blinds.

Then get some heavy fabric drapes velvet/velour would be my first choice and hang them in front of the window. This will also block light for daytime viewing.

It always helps to have pics