[macrojack]

We have this house rented to an elderly (even older than me) couple who will be moving in in early June. They plan to stay 3-5 years and my wife and I are planning to move over there when they leave. That's why we have been investing at an otherwise impractical level.
Wayne makes a good point about letting the tenants suffer. However, it probably won't be all that bad. According to Xcel Energy, my last tenants (also just 2 people) averaged $102/month for gas and electric during their 12 month stay. We can replace windows when we get closer to our own tenancy.

Something no one has mentioned about solar power and other energy considerations, is scale. Smaller houses are, all else being equal, cheaper to fuel. And energy upgrades are cheaper too if you need a smaller amount of say, insulation, roofing or siding.

[WGH]

Something no one has mentioned about solar power and other energy considerations, is scale. Smaller houses are, all else being equal, cheaper to fuel. And energy upgrades are cheaper too if you need a smaller amount of say, insulation, roofing or siding.

My entire neighborhood was built in the 1950's, block construction on concrete slab, gable end framed roof - all the homes were built by skilled tradesman who took pride in their work and built to last. The houses all have the same basic floor plan but with mature plantings and various additions they now all look different. I have one of the few homes without an addition - 2 bedroom, 1 bath, 750 sq feet, that may seem small these days but an entire generation grew up in these homes so it's big enough for me.

I love the cheaper to upgrade part:

7 Marvin Integrity windows $3354
R30 blown insulation (over existing R19 batts) $650
Exterior foam insulation $1100
New HVAC (flexable ductwork, vents, Tempstar unit, installed) $7452

Wayne

[putz]

As I mentioned once before, Windows don't seem to make much difference re: energy savings. We did the whole upstairs because the house settled over the years and storm windows were a mess getting them up and down and the sashes would only stay up with a 2x4 in place. After a couple of winters there was no difference in gas/electric bills so I never upgraded the downstairs windows which were in better shape.

Insulating the attic floor was the way to go.

[JLM]

Yep, plug the holes, then look for cheaper energy.  Except for an unconditioned space (like a barn) I can't understand why anyone would buy single pane windows.  Our Jeld-Wen windows have been great so far (no leaks, can barely hear the wind gusts).  Most are fixed (we run A/C all summer due to allergies), but have strategically placed awning and casement windows.

We built an EPA 5 star, 2,200 s.f. 1 1/2 story house 10 years ago in southern Michigan with full basement (for a family of 5).  Electric bills (oven, well, forced air furnace with A/C, other typical loads) runs $86/month for a now family of 3 (current rate is $0.13/kWH).  We use 1,000 gallons of propane a year.  As one of least sunny areas of the U.S., solar is out (but I did orient the roof to the south just in case of a breakthrough).  Looked into wind, a 12 ft diameter on a 40 foot mast was $11,000 after taxes and would cover roughly 1/3rd of our bill (a 32 year payback) even though we're in a good location (for our area).  Looked into geothermal, would cost $20,000 for additional insulation and equipment and total energy costs for comparable houses were only $50/month less (a 33 year payback).  Frustratingly we are 400 ft from a natural gas distribution line but don't have enough demand in our small rural subdivision to get service (would save us $900/year and burn cleaner).

Have been interested in energy efficient housing since the 70's.  The secret is no gaps (insulation from top to bottom including under the slab-on-grade), eliminating infiltration - leaks (windows, doors, sheathing, electrical boxes, can lights) and good design (staggered stud walls, SIP panels, ICF's, sprayed foam insulation, high thermal mass, passive solar orientation, LED lighting, etc.).  With all that and learning to live in a much smaller house (not like me) you could easily achieve near zero energy bills without solar, wind, or geothermal.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Frustratingly we are 400 ft from a natural gas distribution line but don't have enough demand in our small rural subdivision to get service (would save us $900/year and burn cleaner).

I built my house 400' from the end of the rural water supply, and it cost me about $8,000 for the utility company to continue the pipe to my house. About the same as it would be to dig a well.
Just sayin'....it might be worth you looking into digging a ditch and running some line.
Although, much like the multi-decade payoff of some of your other ideas, it might not be worth it the up-front cost.
Thing is, if you can get some near-by neighbors to help with the cost of that original 400', it would reduce your overall cost.

Bob

[SoCalWJS]

Trying to keep an eye on this thread, but it seems to be tough to keep it on track.

Anyway. We have an all electric house and average a huge number of sunny days per year. I have a large sloping southern exposure roof as well as a southern facing slope that could accommodate a huge solar array. Seems like a no-brainer, right?

We've held off and will continue to do so until the technology matures and regulations change. First of all, the panels themselves lose efficiency very quickly and have a fairly limited lifespan.....but the thing that really pisses me off is how the Electric companies calculate rates regarding buying and selling of Kilowatts.

It's incredibly expensive to go completely off grid. The number of batteries you need to make it through several days of no sunshine is substantial, takes up lots of room, and adds a layer of complexity. The other option is the buy/selling game where you're tied into the grid and a meter keeps track of how much you produce vs how much you buy. The problem is the difference between those two prices is substantial and smacks of protectionism for the Utility Companies. I haven't checked recently, but a few years back, the difference was around 400% - RIDICULOUS!

When this difference is narrowed, solar becomes far more attractive. I'll be waiting until then.

[Bizarroterl]

If you're in California you may want to recheck that for grid tied systems.  I'm in CA and we only pay for the energy we used at the end of our "true up" year.  We don't buy/sell back and forth.  We just pay once a year for what we used (consumed - generated) at the rates at that time.

[JLM]

I built my house 400' from the end of the rural water supply, and it cost me about $8,000 for the utility company to continue the pipe to my house. About the same as it would be to dig a well.
Just sayin'....it might be worth you looking into digging a ditch and running some line.
Although, much like the multi-decade payoff of some of your other ideas, it might not be worth it the up-front cost.
Thing is, if you can get some near-by neighbors to help with the cost of that original 400', it would reduce your overall cost.

Bob

The distribution line is high pressure, so would have to have a pressure reducing station.  A 1/4 mile away there is natural gas service.  Unfortunately our sub got built one house at a time (5 total), we were the last and everyone else had already invested in propane.

[JLM]

Utility companies must cover 100% of peak demand (or suffer brown outs) and big power plants can't adjust quickly to varying demand.  On average 70% of generated power is lost in transmission.  Those two factors means that they have to generate about 10 times the power that is needed.  And they're very much under the gun to be reliable in generation and distribution (a bigger issue where snow and ice storms add to wind storm damage).

So on-site power generation has potential.  Solar is a nice fit because when the sun is out air conditioning demands are typically peaking.  But the real answer is probably going to be with fuel cells (using natural gas or distilling water using solar power and storing the hydrogen).

[vortrex]

Anyone know about this?

http://www.bloomenergy.com

I remember seeing something about their per home unit on 60 minutes or something.

[geezer]

I'm interested in solar, but I'm not sure it's feasible here. If someone has solar in the southwest area of PA, and is willing to give the details, I'd be grateful.

I have reduced my costs and carbon footprint in other ways. My biggest project so far was done eleven years ago when I installed a geothermal system to replace a forced air gas furnace and a whole house air conditioner. At the same time I added to the insulation.

The whole thing cost $15,000. For the 12 months just before the installation my utilities (except for water) costs were: gas, $1414; electricity, $1654. Costs for the 12 months after the installation were: gas, 0; electricity, $1786; a difference of $1282. (Part of the cost savings comes because the geothermal system also dumps excess heat into the water heater.)

Before I knew about geothermal, I had been planning to install a new gas furnace and air conditioner at a cost of about $8,000. So the difference in costs was made up in about six years.

(Besides the financial advantage, there also is the lack of worry about dangers associated with gas: CO and explosion. About ten years ago our gas water heater had a problem and we had a CO incident. Fortunately, we found the problem in time. That's when we went electric on the water heater.)

The system works very well. I set the thermostat for a lower limit of 72 degrees, and an upper limit of 76. Then I ignore it; the system automatic switches between heat and cooling as needed. Maintenance consists of replacing the air filter once a year. The only problem occurred a few months ago when the air blower had to be replaced (about $400).

[ctviggen]

I was very interested in geothermal (still sounds like a great idea to me), until I heard of estimates of $50-70,000 to install.  This is for a retrofit to an existing house with drilling into the ground to run the piping. 

How did you get geothermal installed so cheaply?  Are you using a water source such as a pond? 

[geezer]

I was very interested in geothermal (still sounds like a great idea to me), until I heard of estimates of $50-70,000 to install.  This is for a retrofit to an existing house with drilling into the ground to run the piping. 

How did you get geothermal installed so cheaply?  Are you using a water source such as a pond?

Well, the cost depends on various factors, and your situation may be different from mine. One thing is the size of the house. Mine has just under 3,000 sq. ft. of heated space. A big factor is that my lot is 2 acres, so we didn't need to drill down. Instead we dug four parallel trenches about five feet apart, and each 60 or 70 feet long by about three feet wide and six feet deep. Each had about several hundred feet of plastic tubing coiled at the bottom (think of a slinky spread out sideways). They made a closed loop carrying plain water, with anti-freeze, connected inside the house to the geothermal device (which was about the size of the gas furnace it replaced).

Digging the trenches and laying in the plastic tubing is very much cheaper than drilling. I suppose there would also be a small inflation factor too. But it's important to search around for the right company. I got three bids for the job. One was lower than the company I eventually hired, but while questioning the guy I found he didn't know as much as I do about how they work. The third bidder wanted about $30,000. So there was a huge spread.

One suggestion: My device is called a Water Furnace, made by a company based in Canada. I'd think if you contacted them, they'd be willing to suggest qualified people in your area that handle their product. (Of course if you're limited to drilling you may be just out of luck.)

[thunderbrick]

I work at a university that is converting nearly all of our buildings to geothermal.  I looked into a Water Furnace two years ago, but as you did with your driller, I didn't have confidence in the contractor.  If I ask a question I want a precise answer.  Didn't get it. 

This is low-cost area of the country, and vertical wells were going to cost about $4K each if I remember correctly. 

Ended up with a new heat pump for $17K with all the bells and whistles for clean air, humidity controls, piped-in music, you name it.  Part if it was I didn't want a big landscaping mess, as the thin rocky soil of the Ozarks makes it is a bitch to grow a decent lawn.

[geezer]

Is your unit an air-source heat pump that's located outside the house?

[thunderbrick]

Yep.   Couldn't think of the "air-source" term while typing.   

[Phil A]

Anyone know about this?

http://www.bloomenergy.com

I remember seeing something about their per home unit on 60 minutes or something.

Heard of them a couple of years back.  Would be nice if it became reality and they could get a price that is reasonable.  I had a house built which I closed on a year ago and moved into permanently a couple of months back.  Had solar put in.  Just paid the electric bill which was an $8.23 service charge and the month before it was $9.25 (and a pool pump runs for about 7 or 8 hours each day).  I retired and it's nice to have limited bills.

[rif]

Over the last few years, I've replaced old single pane with efficient double pane windows, blown in cellulose insulation in the attics and exterior walls (with some spray foam here and there), and vinyl siding.

The vinyl siding had the most notable difference in monthly bills, I'm guessing because of the tyvek house sealing. It also has some rigid foam board insulation too.

Just my 2 cents.

[MtnHam]

I had a a 6kw grid tied system installed 4 years ago when my electric bill was $4,000/year. Now it's under $100/year. Even though the cost of the system was much higher then, it still makes sense. With today's system costs, and higher electric rates, the payback period is even shorter, making it a no brainer. I will be dong another system soon on another property, and will probably do it myself, only hiring an electrician to do the final hook-up. This will make the cost about 75% less than before. I can't think of any better place  to invest. A 100% ROI in 3 years is hard to equal in the stock market.

Update: My annual "True-Up" with PG&E (my electric utility company) is coming up soon, and I am $330 to the good this year. Before solar, my monthly was about $350+.

[thunderbrick]

I used to (briefly) be a certified building analyst.  In an earlier life I worked 7 years in building supply sales and have seen both sides of the window discussion.

I understand the thought that replacement windows compared to less expensive weatherizing are not cost effective, but I suspect that assumes that replacement windows are installed by a contractor at who might try too upsell to dubious premium features.

OTOH I have resided two homes and took the opportunity to install new construction vinyl windows and am very happy.  Fully taped, very quiet, no air infiltration, maintenance or warped frames.   Off-the-shelf standard sized windows are not expensive for the DIY folks and I'm dubious about replacement windows since the frames and any pre-existing drafts are not addressed.

A decision on new windows should include intangibles besides cost.  The data may show better use of limited funds or a better ROI, but I am very pleased with my vinyl windows, the first of which went in 20 years ago, and the last one about 15 years ago.

Edit:  I believe vinyl siding has no energy benefit at all.  If new siding helped energy consumption I'm sure it was the Tyvek and foam board installed at the same time.