[glimmer]

Guys,

I understand that many of you have the PMCs...and I am trying my luck here, if you do not mind me asking:

I'm thinking of getting the Brystons amps to power B&W speakers(the 603s).

Does anyone of you had any experience with this combo? whats your view point of this? currently I have the Rotel powering the B&Ws and thinking of upgrading to Bryston 4BSST to power the front speakers.

Unfortunately, where I come from, there is no such thing as a demo in my house, except those available at the dealer's showroom only where the Bryston amps are powering the PMCs.

Can you help?

[jethro]

glimmer,

I have B&W 604S2's, 601S2's, LCR6 S2(whichever is the big center), and B&W 600 S3, as well as PMC speakers. My first system used the top of the line Harmon/Kardon receiver (at that time) along with the B&W's.  I very briefly used Citation 5.1/7.1 amps next. I then bought a Bryston 0.5B preamp and I realized I needed more Bryston gear. I used Bryston 3B-ST's and 4B-ST's with my B&W's before I went with PMC. The Bryston amps, especially the 4B-ST made a huge difference with the B&Ws (even the 600S3's). I ended up with more low and high frequency extension and tigher bass (IMHO)..  I'm not sure where Rotel rates compared to H/K gear so I can't give you a direct comparison.

If at all possible, I would try to take the 603's to your local dealer and have a listen. I'm pretty sure the Bryston will be better with your speakers, but I don't know to what to degree, plus this all my personal opinion and it's your money.

[glimmer]

Jethro,

thanks for the info..greatly appreciated.

I Will try the 4bsst out on the B&Ws. I was just afraid that it will end up having a bright note.


regards.

[jethro]

Jethro,

thanks for the info..greatly appreciated.

I Will try the 4bsst out on the B&Ws. I was just afraid that it will end up having a bright note.

regards.

Personally I've never noticed a brightness with the 4B/3B-St amps and all of my speakers. I have heard non-Bryston amps paired with non B&W/PMC speakers that have been painful, so my hearing appears to be working ok. It's definitely worth giving a listen to the 4B-SST with the 603s.

[KJ]

I run B&W 805's with a 3B-ST and have never thought it to sound overly bright.  YMMV.  Of course, interconnects and speaker cable play a large factor.  What are the other components in your system that could affect the sound?  The frequent comments I hear on the B&W's is that they tend to sound "laid back" regardless of the amp manufacturer.  Nonetheless, I enjoy my B&W/Bryston combination.  My $.02.

-KJ

[James Tanner]

The only thing BRIGHT about Bryston products are the people who purchase them.

james

[KJ]

The only thing BRIGHT about Bryston products are the people who purchase them.

 

Another opinion I've heard is that the SST series has been known to improve on the highs compared to the ST series.  I'm not familiar with how exactly.   Perhaps some folks have confused this with a change in "brightness?"

-KJ

[nicolasb]

I'm thinking of getting the Brystons amps to power B&W speakers(the 603s).

Bryston amps will drive those speakers as well as any amp would, but it would still be a waste of money. Using a 4B-SST to power speakers like that is like using a Ferrari engine in a VW Beetle: it may well perform better than the original engine, but everything else about the car will slow it down so much that it's not worth bothering with.

In a stereo system, as a very rough guide, you should spend at least the same amount of money on the speakers as you do on the amplifier and pre-amp combined. If you're planning on a major speaker upgrade in a year or two, and you want to buy an amp now that will do an excellent job of driving your next, much higher quality, set of speakers then go ahead; but, if not, you're throwing money away. The amount of improvement you will get to your sound quality from buying a less-prodigious amplifier but also upgrading the speakers at the same time is much greater than the difference you will hear if you use a top-of-the-line amp with speakers like the 603.

Looking at B&W's current range, I'd say a 3B-SST amp would be quite adequate to drive anything up to a pair of Nautilus 803s, a 4B-SST would be reasonably comfortable with Nautilus 802s, and a 14B-SST (or a pair of 7B-SSTs) would do a pretty good job with Nautilus 800s.

[James Tanner]

Another option with the 603's would be our new 2B SST

jame

[KJ]

Bryston amps will drive those speakers as well as any amp would, but it would still be a waste of money.

I wouldn't quite call it a waste of money.  Going back to the original question, I would still argue that you will perceive a noticeable improvement in quality of sound.  When comparing the Rotel amps to the Bryston, it almost feels as if a veil is lifted (my opinion anyway).  Whether or not that improvement is large enough to justify spending the money is up to you.  Often times in this hobby, additional spending results in a diminished return as you go up the scale.

If you're planning on a major speaker upgrade in a year or two, and you want to buy an amp now that will do an excellent job of driving your next, much higher quality, set of speakers then go ahead; but, if not, you're throwing money away.

When taking power into consideration this is very true.  Again, quality of sound (and future upgrades to nicholasb's point) is a decision you'll have to justify.  I purchased a 3B-ST when I bought my B&W 805s.  Now that I'm looking to upgrade to a higher quality (and more power hungry) speaker, I'm regretting not going with the 4B-ST.

-KJ

[nicolasb]

Upgrading your amp will certainly make the system sound better - but you must never, ever, ever ask yourself the question "will this make my system sound better?" That way lies madness and financial ruin.

Instead ask yourself 1: "How much money do I want to spend?" and 2: "Of all the options open to me that cost that much, which will result in the greatest improvement to sound quality?" Medium-priced speakers hooked up to a medium-priced amp will almost certainly sound better than cheap speakers hooked up to an expensive amp.

I have to say as well, actually, that once you get to a certain level with power amplifiers, upgrading the power amp usually makes less of a difference to the overall sound quality than upgrading any other component would - but of course if you fall below that minimum level then you're in real trouble - and the minimum level will vary a lot from speaker to speaker.

I purchased a 3B-ST when I bought my B&W 805s. Now that I'm looking to upgrade to a higher quality (and more power hungry) speaker, I'm regretting not going with the 4B-ST.

Maybe you'll be okay. I'm driving a pair of Nautilus 803s with a 9B-ST, and they sound fine!

[glimmer]

hi,

I actually intend to also upgrade the speakers overtime(in a years time) to  N804 and HTM1 for the fronts. Hence, had been advised to go for the 4BSST from the start, so that I do not have to change the amps anymore.

Is that a good suggestion? Not sure if the dealers is trying to oversell.

Any way, many thanks for your input/guidiance.

[nicolasb]

I actually intend to also upgrade the speakers overtime(in a years time) to N804 and HTM1 for the fronts.

Even for those speakers a 4B-SST would be significant overkill, IMO. A 3B-SST might make sense.

Bear in mind as well that B&W will probably have scrapped the existing Nautilus range and and replaced it with something else by then - or did you mean you were going to buy 2nd hand?

(Many people don't care for 804s, btw. I know one store that actually stopped stocking them because virtually every customer who auditioned them ended up either getting 805s or 803s instead.)

[KJ]

A 3B-SST is definitely more than ample to drive the N804s and would nicely power the N803s as well.  Not sure that B&W has any plans to replace the existing Nautilus line.  I asked that question not too long ago and was told there were no plans in the works (unless it's being kept quiet).

Nonetheless, I don't think you'd strain a 3B-SST unless you start looking at the N802s.  Of course, for the extra $600 list (probably a smaller difference after discount) to get a 4B-SST you'll cover a large quantity of potential floor standing speaker purchases in the future.  Something to consider...

-KJ

[nicolasb]

Not sure that B&W has any plans to replace the existing Nautilus line.  I asked that question not too long ago and was told there were no plans in the works (unless it's being kept quiet).

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? As soon as it becomes generally known that there's a new and improved model in the offing, everyone stops buying the old one until it comes out.

The current Nautilus 800 series is, what, four years old now? Five? That's usually about how long B&W allow a range to continue before replacing it. (Consider, for example, the Matrix series that was replaced by the 800 series, and the range whose name I can't for the moment remember that was replaced by the 700 series). Sooner or later they will want to produce a high-end but mainstream line of speakers using the tweeter technology that appears in the Nautilus 800 and the Signature range (800/805/HTM/SCM).

It's a shame they haven't already, really - the lack of clarity in the treble (that's the result of the Nautilus tweeter) is the one thing that really holds the Nautilus range back. A speaker that combines the 803 mid-range with the Signature 805 treble would be a killer.  

[AlexB]

I would second nicolasb.  I used to have B&W P4, tried it with Bryston pre/power.  I think Bryston is a bit of an overkill for cheaper B&W series.  It is not  a possible brightness as such that you should worry about,  but rather the fact that Bryston is IMHO a bit too revealing/transparent in high/upper mid area for budget gear, and will accentuate slightly rough nature of B&W metal dome tweeter.   Otherwise it should be fine - B&W are never shy in the bass area and Bryston will tighten it up.  I good used 3B SST would be a sensible (and not too expensive) match IMHO,  I doubt if it's worth going any higher.

[KJ]

B&W are never shy in the bass area and Bryston will tighten it up.

I'm getting off topic, but the lack of bass and value have been the primary reason I'm hesitant to look at B&Ws again.  I will agree that the Bryston amps will get the most out of them, and I'm content to use Bryston for my future amp needs.  However, I feel that I should be able to get more than 42Hz at 0db out of a $5K (list) speaker.  Perhaps B&W will improve this with a new line, but somehow I doubt their pricing will remain the same or go down.

-KJ

[nicolasb]

I should be able to get more than 42Hz at 0db out of a $5K (list) speaker.

The -3dB point for the 803s is at 35Hz, -6dB at 28, so there is a bit of extension below 42, it's not a brick wall.

I suppose one also has to ask what you're proposing to listen to. I prefer classical music, myself, and my 803s would certainly have very serious problems if I were to throw my favourite recording of Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra" at them. It makes heavy use of the lowest octave on a really large pipe organ, which means there's lots of stuff going on in the 16-31Hz range.

So, like I said, my 803s would burst into tears if I tried to play that recording back on them. But at the same time, how many $5K stereo floorstanders actually can get down to 16Hz at all usefully? If you're going to be playing recordings like that then you're pretty much resigned to having to use a separate subwoofer anyway!

Of course, if you want real bass on a B&W speaker you could always buy a pair of the original Nautilus speakers. They'd set you back about $50,000 for a pair, plus the price of buying eight Bryston 7B-SST monoblocks to drive them.  

[KJ]

But at the same time, how many $5K stereo floorstanders actually can get down to 16Hz at all usefully?

The number of standalone speakers in that price range does seem quite limited.  There are a few mentioned throughout this forum that can reach into the 20Hz range (VMPS, GR Research, Gallos, etc) but that's a different topic for another forum I suppose...

I suppose one also has to ask what you're proposing to listen to.

I guess I want to have the option to throw whatever possible at my future speakers.  Thus my regret with settling for the 3B-ST.  I can always pick up another 3B-ST and bi-amp or bridge, but it seems most people would opt for a 4B-ST (or SST) rather than use (2) 3B-STs (or SSTs).  It seems bridging is the last option people go for.  Perhaps James can clarify the pros/cons to doing that on the Bryston amps?  Might provide some additional options for glimmer's current situation.

-KJ

[glimmer]

Hi Nicolasb,

You're right, I intend to buy a pair of used N803 or N804 of the exising range.

Most of the setup I had seen had the speakers paired up either with Classe or Mark or Pass Labs, haven't seen a setup paired upwith Bryston.

I am keen on the Bryston because of the architeature/design of the amps and the clean sound it re-produced.

Managed to persuade the dealer to test the 4BSST and 3BSST(the price difference is 400/-) here with my BW 6 series. will let you know of the outcome.

Again, many thanks for yours and many of fellow member's guidiance - greatly appreciate it.