[opnly bafld]

Sorry, i didnt know a plumber or mechanics gets pay that high.

The prices are what the company they work for charges, most make considerably less.

Lin

[Quiet Earth]

I think it's a cool idea.    I wouldn't mind having something like this to play around with. Maybe put it right after the phono stage. Although it looks like it could go anywhere at line level. Clever idea.

It is a passive device, so I am very curious about the following :

1. What is the input impedance?
2. What is the output impedance?
3. What is the insertion loss?
4. How much cable capacitance can it see on the output before it runs into trouble?

I run a passive pre, so this is useful information for me.

[Alberto DeRoma]

Audio in the 70s....50X knobs, bass, treble, presence, loudness, surround, delay, quadraphonic.

Audio in the 80s....  50X-50X= no tone controls, just balance, volume and perhaps gain.

Audio in the 90s..... repeat the 80s.

Audio in the new millennia.... parametric, computerized, DSP, no gain, to no nothing.

Audio in the new newly discovered, terra incognita of audio, an iteration of everything before but add marketing and a bit of artisan craftsmanship, at a price.

If you feel you need it, buy it but adding more to the circuit path that you have been clearing of extraneous circuits and components, might lead to not so pleasant effects or audio nirvana.   

Each one to his/her own.

Actually a VERY NICE summary of some of the trends in audio. Thank you for that. .

I went through all those phases. For the past 3+ years (and hopefully for a loooooong time) I've been loving my all-tube minimalist Shindo+Tannoy system. It sound wonderful with good recordings and SPECTACULAR with great recordings.

Unfortunately, some of the music I love was not so well recorded or mastered. Some recordings sound harsh/tinny/brigh, others too lean. On top of that, due to loudness effect well documented by Fletcher-Munson a few decades ago, low-volume listening (e.g. late night) is not as satisfying without some low-frequency compensation.

With my previous preamp (McIntosh) I had tone controls and used them to address some of these sonic issues. Alas, my Shindo preamp has no tone controls, so I experimented with several passive circuits between the pre and power amp and hit on a design that I really liked and helped a lot with those less-than-great recordings and low-volume listening. That's how The Delicious One came to be. I built it for myself. Loved it, and thought that other audiophiles might be in a similar predicament.

Bottom line: I want my (sonic) "cake" and eat it too. The simplest/purest possible signal path (my Shindo Cortese amp is an SET) for great recordings and, when the recordings need a little help, the simplest possible circuit--with a true-bypass when not needed--to provide that help. For me that's the audio nirvana you mention, but I can fully appreciate the people who disagree ...

Alberto

[DaveC113]

For me, there's no way I'm going to add a 3rd set of ic cables and rca jacks to my system. As the owner said, that could cost more than the D1.

BUT, I would be interested in adding it to my preamp... if you sold the parts to be able to add it to a amp/preamp and kept the price down I think it would sell. A DIY version with no chassis, knob, wiring or RCA jacks that sold for well under $100 would be a nice product.

[Quiet Earth]

Why don't you just make your own then?

[DaveC113]

Why don't you just make your own then?

You could say that about anything...

[Quiet Earth]

Yeah, but you're the one who wants all of the work done for less than a hundred dollars. People always want something for nothing. Just look at the pollution in China. When will it all stop?


BTW, I was serious when I asked about the technical specs. It might be useful to some perspective buyers.

1. What is the input impedance?
2. What is the output impedance?
3. What is the insertion loss?
4. How much cable capacitance can it see on the output before it runs into trouble?

[AJinFLA]

Wow, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
The guy is offering something that will physically alter the sound, possibly for the better...and is variable. Doesn't require a shred of overactive imagination either, the effect will be quite real.
If he charges less, "audiophiles" (his intended target, you know, the ones who view after studio "EQ" as heretical evil  ) won't buy it because inexpensive = "mid fi"/cheap sound/etc, etc.
So he hand builds them, charges $500....and gets skewered.

Good luck Alberto, live your dreams, don't apologize.

cheers

AJ

[Davey]

AJ,

I don't think it's the concept or price that's really an issue.  An adjustable "loudness" control is not something new and neither are high-priced gadgets.

What I find funny is the rhetoric and the name of the device.    A "variable deliciousness control."  Classic!! 

I give Alberto props for actually coming on the forum and talking about it.  Most wouldn't do that.

Dave.

[DaveC113]

Yeah, but you're the one who wants all of the work done for less than a hundred dollars. People always want something for nothing. Just look at the pollution in China. When will it all stop?

Not for nothing, for under $100. Just a guideline where I feel it might be successful... I'm trying to help here, why are you trying to attack me?

Seriously, China? 

[Quiet Earth]

I'm not attacking you Dave. I apologize to you brother man!  No bad will was intended.

The title in the thread is "overpriced", and most people have shown they want something for nothing. You wanted a drop in kit version for next to nothing. That's like having all of the work done for you for less than you would work for. I think the kit was a good idea, but your price expectations were too optimistic. I think the only way "well under 100 dollars" can be accomplished is to outsource, which is something the builder tried to talk about in his defense.

Sorry if I was out of line.

[DaveC113]

No problem QE. .. just trying to offer a suggestion that would sell. I have no idea what it would really cost and if 100 is too low that's ok.

[Alberto DeRoma]

I think it's a cool idea.    I wouldn't mind having something like this to play around with. Maybe put it right after the phono stage. Although it looks like it could go anywhere at line level. Clever idea.

It is a passive device, so I am very curious about the following :

1. What is the input impedance?
2. What is the output impedance?
3. What is the insertion loss?
4. How much cable capacitance can it see on the output before it runs into trouble?

I run a passive pre, so this is useful information for me.

Hello Quiet Earth,

Nice to get back to answering technical questions instead of getting "skewered" on pricing decisions and labour costs  .

I ask each buyer about their equipment (e.g. their preamp output impedance and their amp input impedance/sensitivity) and adjust the component values accordingly. This takes time too, BTW.

What I am aiming for the illustrated by the following curve (in this case for a ~10K output impedance and ~100K input):



I generated the graph using FuzzMeasure with a 2 second sweep from 20 to 20,000Hz. Each line in the curve represents a 30deg rotation of the knob. The overlapped lines at the top represent bypass and full-counterclockwise. Right channel is red, left channel is black, so you can also see L/R channel tracking is pretty darn good.

There is ZERO insertion loss with the bypass engaged (of course) and with the knob fully counterclockwise. As you turn the knob, the overall volume decreases non-linearly (it tapers very gently at first, more toward the end) and based on frequency as you can see in the graph. With the most dramatic decrease at the clockwise-most end of the range, where the control is close to one of my favorite loudness compensation curves (vintage McIntosh.)

As it turns out, since most system have plenty of gain and many potentiometers don't track very well at the bottom end of their range, and that that end of the range is for loudness compensation (i.e. low-volume listening) this is not an issue but a benefit for 90% of people. However, if you have a passive preamp feeding a 2W SET  that loss in dbs might be too much.

The alternative was to make it an active device and offer unity gain, but that would have required many more components additional noise, cost, etc., even if I used opamps.

I hope this answers some questions. I have a couple of videos that explains/address these matter in more details: http://www.deliciousdecibels.com/videos.html

Thank you for keeping the discussion technical, this is The Lab forum after all.

Alberto

[Alberto DeRoma]

No problem QE. .. just trying to offer a suggestion that would sell. I have no idea what it would really cost and if 100 is too low that's ok.

Phew, I am glad you are making peace. This is supposed to be a fun hobby guys. I usually go to audio forums to relax.

Yes, I've made the decision to build The Delicious One in my neck of the woods, which happens to be the very expensive Silicon Valley. Unless you are a SW/HW engineer, life can be economically very challenging here. The $20-30/hr and associated pricing is not for my own benefit, but knowing how expensive it is to live here and that electronics assembly is hard work, if this is going to scale up (a big IF at this point) I'd like to pay people a living wage. This is important to me.

I know it's hard to understand and appreciate some things without an understanding of the economic realities, so thank you for the opportunity to explain this.

Alberto

[Alberto DeRoma]

Wow, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
The guy is offering something that will physically alter the sound, possibly for the better...and is variable. Doesn't require a shred of overactive imagination either, the effect will be quite real.
If he charges less, "audiophiles" (his intended target, you know, the ones who view after studio "EQ" as heretical evil  ) won't buy it because inexpensive = "mid fi"/cheap sound/etc, etc.
So he hand builds them, charges $500....and gets skewered.

Good luck Alberto, live your dreams, don't apologize.

cheers

AJ

AJ, thank you for your comments. I must admit I do feel a bit skewered (and at a time I was trying to keep a low profile) but overall the discussion has been relatively civil.

Having said that, I am passionate about audio and tone controls and, if this goes forward, I care about employing local people who need the work and offer them a living wage. And, in my book, getting skewered for doing things I believe in is almost an honor.

Having said that, I hope I have answered all the main questions and recuse myself from further discussions for a while. Next I will make a totally unrelated fun post as my contribution to AC and then I am going to use the rest of the week-end to do some work and enjoy my family.

Thanks again for the kind words,

Alberto

[fado]

I am not a technical person so I would appreciate some help in understanding the difference between this tone control and the more expensive tone control proposed by Music Reference.

Thank You

[FullRangeMan]

And I thought I had seen everything!
The text of the presentation of this product was superbly well-written and revised, after reading it Iam already thinking that this product is actually useful.

If a music lover is not a audiophile and want tone controls to color your music, why not buy a entry level amp as NAD or Rotel, who already had tone controls or even get better speakers??

Some are very inexpensive, this Marantz goes for $817 and offer 3 tone controls and a balance control to insert plenty of DHT.
http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-PM8004-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier/dp/B003R7KMT2/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1393698829&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=rotel+integrated+amp

How can a man forget how to turning a knob til his taste!:
While some audiophiles applaud this trend, others, including ourselves, really miss the ability to use tone controls to adjust the sound to compensate and adjust for poor recordings or special listening situation (e.g. low-volume listening.)
The release of this gadget took me by surprise, not for the huge price, but for the external tone control idea it self.

[fado]

In my case, I seek tone control not due to deficiencies in recorded material or compnents but deficiencies in my own hearing. I have moderate tinnitus of the high pitched ringing type. It is aggravated by certain higher frequencies, volume and perhaps other characteristics of the music which I do not understand. Renee Fleming's "Amazing Grace" hurts while Jessye Norman's does not. Almost every song on a Roberta Flack album hurts when played at normal volume. I like string/piano quartets/quintets but I now search out cello performances.

I first noticed this problem when auditioning speakers after many years without any serious system. Of the limited number of speakers auditioned, Devore, Daedalus and Linn speakers were much kinder to my defective ears than others.

I have wondered if an equalizer of some type might help. I see on Audiocircle and Audiogon that some people use Metric Halo equipment (usually ULN-8 or LIO-8) but I do not know if these are equalizers. Parametric equalizers are quite expensive and, I think, quite complicated. A simple, clean device that would allow attenuation of offendig frequencies would be welcome as would an option of adjusting several frequencies to get the most pleasing sound at low listening levels.

I know I will be altering accurate reproduction of the music, but inaccurate reproduction would be better for me than a painful unpleasant experience. Thank you for bringing up this topic.

My System:
Modwright KWA 150SE, Modwright LS100, Bolder Cable modified Eastern Electric DAC, Bryston BDP-1 digital player, Furman IT Reference 20i power conditioner and Daedalus Audio DA-RMa speakers with All-Poly crossovers. I do plan on upgrading the DA-RMa's to v.2 sometime this year.

[xsb7244]

Welcome aboard Alberto.  It is great to be able to talk to the designer.  Do you have any more products up your sleeve that you are working on?  Again, it is a pleasure to have you here.

[charmerci]

Well, I saw this ad with a plain black box with a switch and big shiny knob and I started this thread with the headlines as questions specifically because I was curious. I do know a bit about electronics but not in great detail hence the questions here on The Lab. For me personally, that's a big chunk of change that doesn't come easily.

Nevertheless bravo to you, Alberto for coming here and being conversational and bringing info about it.

(Btw, this product reminds me about one episode of the British sci-fi comedy TV series Red Dwarf. In one episode there is the Holly Hop Drive, a time machine consisting of a small box with two buttons, Start and Stop. Funny stuff!)