What is this? An overpriced tone control?

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Afterimage

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #40 on: 2 Mar 2014, 02:45 pm »
Since I have a lot of crap recordings but are some of my favorite music this interest me.  However, most of us have computer setups these days.  This means we don't get up and physically put recordings on.  If we did, then it would be no big deal to turn the knob while your at your rack.  I tend to sit in my chair and randomly select songs from my library on my ipad or iphone.  So for this to be of good use to me, it would be nice if it had remote capabilities. 

AJinFLA

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #41 on: 2 Mar 2014, 03:01 pm »
Since I have a lot of crap recordings but are some of my favorite music this interest me.  However, most of us have computer setups these days.  This means we don't get up and physically put recordings on.  If we did, then it would be no big deal to turn the knob while your at your rack.  I tend to sit in my chair and randomly select songs from my library on my ipad or iphone.  So for this to be of good use to me, it would be nice if it had remote capabilities.

Hi,

In that scenario, why not just apply EQ via software? You could even do loudness curve presets for low level listening and others for say, bright recordings. Not to mention cut any bass peaks in room, etc, etc.
Don't use an "i" anything, but I assume (possibly incorrectly) there are programs available, like with Windows.

cheers,

AJ

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #42 on: 2 Mar 2014, 03:26 pm »

Thanks Alberto for adding your efforts to better audio playback. It might be the right device to save someone from flipping speakers and losing much more than what Delicious costs.

I have to agree with AJ and laugh at how Alberto gets hassled for making a high quality, it appears, device that costs $500.00. It's not a pet rock people, or cables. Those thinking it costs too much for what it is should try and build the same and match the price. Thats just building it, how about answering all the emails and phone calls asking a bizzilion questions. Factor your time in the price as well.

While one could use digital e.q. to approach the same effect, it often times works out that it's hard to duplicate a particular sound of a piece of gear, speakers, etc., so this tone control may be a Godsend to the right customer.

Thanks to Charmerci for the Delicious thread.

P.S. For me I would want Delicious to have the inputs be short cables coming out of the box with female rcas to as to eliminate buying another set of interconnects.

Rocket_A Little More Bass Please_Ronny
« Last Edit: 2 Mar 2014, 05:51 pm by Rocket_Ronny »

Alberto DeRoma

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #43 on: 2 Mar 2014, 03:50 pm »
Since I have a lot of crap recordings but are some of my favorite music this interest me.  However, most of us have computer setups these days.  This means we don't get up and physically put recordings on.  If we did, then it would be no big deal to turn the knob while your at your rack.  I tend to sit in my chair and randomly select songs from my library on my ipad or iphone.  So for this to be of good use to me, it would be nice if it had remote capabilities.

Hi Afterimage,

Thank you for the constructive feedback.

The "crap recordings" problem was the prime motivators for me to invent a solution. I found it frustrating that the better my system got the crappier crap recordings sounded --- pardon my French.

My listening habits are also similar to your, streaming from my computer (sometimes Rhapsody or Pandora on Sonos) to my DAC, and controlling music selection either from my mobile phone or laptop. That is unless I get the urge to go analog and turn to my turntable.

The remote suggestion is a valid one that I've been exploring.  For now, I've place The Delicious One between my pre and power amp (see photo) and when I feel the need to get up to adjust for a particular record I consider it part of my exercise for the day  :D.



Alberto




Alberto DeRoma

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #44 on: 2 Mar 2014, 04:24 pm »
In my case, I seek tone control not due to deficiencies in recorded material or compnents but deficiencies in my own hearing. I have moderate tinnitus of the high pitched ringing type. It is aggravated by certain higher frequencies, volume and perhaps other characteristics of the music which I do not understand. Renee Fleming's "Amazing Grace" hurts while Jessye Norman's does not. Almost every song on a Roberta Flack album hurts when played at normal volume. I like string/piano quartets/quintets but I now search out cello performances.

I first noticed this problem when auditioning speakers after many years without any serious system. Of the limited number of speakers auditioned, Devore, Daedalus and Linn speakers were much kinder to my defective ears than others.

I have wondered if an equalizer of some type might help. I see on Audiocircle and Audiogon that some people use Metric Halo equipment (usually ULN-8 or LIO-8) but I do not know if these are equalizers. Parametric equalizers are quite expensive and, I think, quite complicated. A simple, clean device that would allow attenuation of offendig frequencies would be welcome as would an option of adjusting several frequencies to get the most pleasing sound at low listening levels.

I know I will be altering accurate reproduction of the music, but inaccurate reproduction would be better for me than a painful unpleasant experience. Thank you for bringing up this topic.


First of all, I am sorry to hear about your tinnitus. But I am discovering that a change in what our ears like or tolerate changes for most people as we age, regardless of tinnitus.

When I was younger, music I would not consider really harsh and tinny and loud, did not bother me at all. Now when I see kids (mine and other) listening to music from YouTube (!) through headphones so loud that I can hear what they are listening to from 10' away, I wonder how they manage.

Over the years I've found myself migrating to tubes and components/brands with a "softer and more forgiving" sonic signature. But I still had issues with some recordings whose music I love but that sounded harsh and fatiguing to my ears.

Here's my suggestion for you (based on how I did some of my research and experimentation on what makes some recordings harsh and fatiguing):

1) I would try to borrow an equalizer (parametric or graphic) the type or quality of the EQ does not really matter at this point (you can even do this with a software EQ depending on your setup), your goal is to identify what frequencies you find most "offensive".

2) Play one of the recordings you mention as aggravating your tinnitus (or sounding harsh) e.g., the Renee Fleming's Amazing Grace you mention.

3) Play around with the EQ settings. Try cutting a few dbs around, say, ~2KHz; does that help? If not, move up or down in frequency and/or cut until the music sounds more pleasant, less fatiguing, etc. Sometimes, a bass boost makes the music sound richer so you can listen at lower volumes and still get that satisfying rich sound. Once you know what ails you and how it can be fixed then you can decide if the investment in an audiophile-quality equalizer (parametric/graphic, HW/SW) is worth it.

I had always thought that brightness (treble frequencies) were responsible for hard, fatiguing sound. But, by doing what I've described above, after many experiments over a period of months I've determined that -- at least for me -- what makes some records fatiguing and harsh has much more to do with the midrange frequencies than the treble -- and also with the overall volume.

This is not too surprising since our hearing has evolved to be most sensitive to the higher end of the midrange frequencies, roughly 1-4KHz (e.g. to hear the sound of a baby crying ... or the wife calling :-)).

My "formula" for making those recordings sound more delicious is the one represented in the image of the curves I've uploaded in a previous post. Some recordings just need a little bass boost, others need a bit of a cut in those midrange frequencies, etc. There are, by the way, infinite variations between the curves that I selected. Because some recordings need more "fixin'" and others less. The big knob in The Delicious One is not there just for looks, the large diameter makes it easier to easily dial in just the right amount of effect.

Sorry about the long post, but I hope this suggestion will help you. It's a frustrating fact of this hobby and passion of ours that as we grow older we are in a better financial situation to buy great gear ... while our hearing is going South.

Alberto

ricardojoa

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #45 on: 2 Mar 2014, 07:21 pm »
First of all, I am sorry to hear about your tinnitus. But I am discovering that a change in what our ears like or tolerate changes for most people as we age, regardless of tinnitus.

When I was younger, music I would not consider really harsh and tinny and loud, did not bother me at all. Now when I see kids (mine and other) listening to music from YouTube (!) through headphones so loud that I can hear what they are listening to from 10' away, I wonder how they manage.

Over the years I've found myself migrating to tubes and components/brands with a "softer and more forgiving" sonic signature. But I still had issues with some recordings whose music I love but that sounded harsh and fatiguing to my ears.

Here's my suggestion for you (based on how I did some of my research and experimentation on what makes some recordings harsh and fatiguing):

1) I would try to borrow an equalizer (parametric or graphic) the type or quality of the EQ does not really matter at this point (you can even do this with a software EQ depending on your setup), your goal is to identify what frequencies you find most "offensive".

2) Play one of the recordings you mention as aggravating your tinnitus (or sounding harsh) e.g., the Renee Fleming's Amazing Grace you mention.

3) Play around with the EQ settings. Try cutting a few dbs around, say, ~2KHz; does that help? If not, move up or down in frequency and/or cut until the music sounds more pleasant, less fatiguing, etc. Sometimes, a bass boost makes the music sound richer so you can listen at lower volumes and still get that satisfying rich sound. Once you know what ails you and how it can be fixed then you can decide if the investment in an audiophile-quality equalizer (parametric/graphic, HW/SW) is worth it.

I had always thought that brightness (treble frequencies) were responsible for hard, fatiguing sound. But, by doing what I've described above, after many experiments over a period of months I've determined that -- at least for me -- what makes some records fatiguing and harsh has much more to do with the midrange frequencies than the treble -- and also with the overall volume.

This is not too surprising since our hearing has evolved to be most sensitive to the higher end of the midrange frequencies, roughly 1-4KHz (e.g. to hear the sound of a baby crying ... or the wife calling :-)).

My "formula" for making those recordings sound more delicious is the one represented in the image of the curves I've uploaded in a previous post. Some recordings just need a little bass boost, others need a bit of a cut in those midrange frequencies, etc. There are, by the way, infinite variations between the curves that I selected. Because some recordings need more "fixin'" and others less. The big knob in The Delicious One is not there just for looks, the large diameter makes it easier to easily dial in just the right amount of effect.

Sorry about the long post, but I hope this suggestion will help you. It's a frustrating fact of this hobby and passion of ours that as we grow older we are in a better financial situation to buy great gear ... while our hearing is going South.

Alberto

Hi Alberto. What frequencies does the unit covers? I saw the video, and if i understand right, the initial turn will increase bass then proceed to cut down the upper mid/lower highs, and further to cut the highs.
You have lean,thin and warm, harsh sounding discriptions. As you may know, these adjectives might have different meaning to different people. How will one know that the effects will suitable to the listener?

Russell Dawkins

Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #46 on: 2 Mar 2014, 08:17 pm »
Hi Alberto. What frequencies does the unit covers? I saw the video, and if i understand right, the initial turn will increase bass then proceed to cut down the upper mid/lower highs, and further to cut the highs.
You have lean,thin and warm, harsh sounding discriptions. As you may know, these adjectives might have different meaning to different people. How will one know that the effects will suitable to the listener?
(If I may) Did you see reply #32 above?

fado

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #47 on: 3 Mar 2014, 07:56 pm »
Thank You, Alberto, for your thoughtful scheme to approach my hearing issues. Age related hearing issues are not that uncommon but you are the first person to reply to my query which was also posted earlier in response to the Music Reference Tone Control thread. I have had a very kind offer of a parametric equalizer loan which I may now act on.

My hearing is not too bad through 2000Hz but begins to decline between 2000Hz and 4000Hz. My hearing threshold at 2000Hz is 30dB but declines to 70dB at 4000Hz and stays at about that level through 10,000Hz. My left ear can detect 12,500Hz at 75dB but my right ear cannot hear 12,500Hz at 80dB which is the loudest the test equipment can generate. I hear nothing at 16,000Hz. The 4000Hz tone becomes painful at ~100dB. There is a 20dB - 30dB range between hearing threshold and a painful level from 4000Hz to 10,000dB.

My hearing aids have a tinnitus masking program which targets sounds at ~5000Hz to 5600Hz. My audiologist felt that a device which could attenuate frequencies between ~4000Hz through 10,000 Hz in 1dB increments could be helpful. I have a feeling that this may be a lot to ask of either your tone control or the Music Reference tone control so experimentation with an equalizer is required.

Since a rewarding listening experience will, as noted in several threads, depend on the quality of the recording, room and individual hearing issues the idea of using cables to me seems untenable. I cannot imagine how many $300 to $1500 cables I would have to have to address source/system variables for the most enjoyable listening. How often would I have to swap cables? Tone control seems to be audiophile heresy, but, if you just want to listen to music that works for you - why not use what works?

bacobits1

Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #48 on: 3 Mar 2014, 11:54 pm »
Speaking with Alberto through PM he is a sincere and knowledgeable individual.
I did check out the whole site.

Good luck in your musical endeavor. It's tough out there.


Carl V

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #49 on: 5 Mar 2014, 06:26 pm »
Quote
(If I may) Did you see reply #32 above?
....apologies, OT, why can I not see the post #. I use Firefox
if that matters. or do I need to change something locally.

Back to the topic...nice product, surprised it's not a lovely
shade of green with a gold tone knob....with a California
wine region appellation model name. :wink:

I too am curious to see what Music
Reference does.

Russell Dawkins

Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #50 on: 5 Mar 2014, 06:52 pm »
I use Firefox and the post # shows in the second line down from the top, under the post subject, in bold.

srb

Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #51 on: 5 Mar 2014, 06:54 pm »
....apologies, OT, why can I not see the post #. I use Firefox
if that matters. or do I need to change something locally.

Do you not see the Reply # in the post header?  It should appear in all browsers.

Steve

 

Carl V

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #52 on: 5 Mar 2014, 07:02 pm »
Do you not see the Reply # in the post header?  It should appear in all browsers.

Steve

 


I do now...if it was a snake...
ask & learn
Old Dawgs & new trix

thanx

Alberto DeRoma

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The Delicious One FAQ
« Reply #53 on: 6 Mar 2014, 11:52 pm »
Hi Alberto. What frequencies does the unit covers? I saw the video, and if i understand right, the initial turn will increase bass then proceed to cut down the upper mid/lower highs, and further to cut the highs.
You have lean,thin and warm, harsh sounding discriptions. As you may know, these adjectives might have different meaning to different people. How will one know that the effects will suitable to the listener?

Hello Ricardo,

Apologies for the delay in replying to your questions (I cringe a bit every time I have to re-read the original title thread :-)).

Please take a look at the The Delicious One FAQ (link below) because I believe it will answer all your questions:

http://www.deliciousdecibels.com/the-delicious-one-faq.html

Thank you,

Alberto

Bob2

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #54 on: 7 Mar 2014, 12:13 am »
Alberto,
will you be displaying your new item at AXPONA?

charmerci

Re: The Delicious One FAQ
« Reply #55 on: 7 Mar 2014, 12:43 am »
Hello Ricardo,

Apologies for the delay in replying to your questions (I cringe a bit every time I have to re-read the original title thread :) ).



Hey! I didn't know you were going to be reading this.  :roll:   :o

Alberto DeRoma

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Re: The Delicious One FAQ
« Reply #56 on: 7 Mar 2014, 01:10 am »

Hey! I didn't know you were going to be reading this.  :roll:   :o

We can both thank Google Alerts and Analytics for that :-).

Seriously. No worries Charmerci. If anything, this unexpected exposure (although premature) gave me a valuable heads-up of what's coming. I know that tone controls are anathema with the majority of audiophiles, so The Delicious One is bound to get all kind of heat from all kind of people for all kind of reasons. Fortunately, there's a minority (like me) who want what The Delicious One does ... and they seem to be happy with it: http://www.deliciousdecibels.com/reviews.html

Also, I just didn't think that in a world of multi-$K cables, hundred $ fuses/footers/capacitors and other components that may or may not make an audible difference, $549 for an honest-to-goodness hand-built with quality-component device (whose effect is 100% audible and--for some people--very beneficial) would be considered over-priced. Expensive? Perhaps. I probably went over-board and over-built it (e.g. with the custom machined aluminum knob) -- I just wanted to build something unique, really nice looking, nice feeling -- unlike anything else out there. I may have overshot and increased my own cost too high -- probably have.

Anyway, no hard feelings, honest. The thread title was your genuine reaction and you (and other AC members) have responded like gentlemen going forward. Plus, I am enjoying being a member of Audio Circle since there's a bunch of very interesting and very knowledgeable people and topics that I haven't seen in other forums. And, if all goes well, I look forward to becoming an AC industry supporter. So, all's well that ends well.

Alberto



Alberto DeRoma

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #57 on: 7 Mar 2014, 01:15 am »
Alberto,
will you be displaying your new item at AXPONA?

I wish. Unfortunately it's in Chicago and I am in California --- kind of an expensive proposition for a fledgeling company.

But I am thinking about The California Audio Show in August since that's near San Francisco ... Showcasing an external tone control in a crowd of "straight-wire with gain" mentality audiophiles. What could go wrong :-).




Alberto

charmerci

Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #58 on: 7 Mar 2014, 01:23 am »
Alberto,

I am responding tongue-in-cheek, hence the emoticons. It's all been cool from my end and I'm glad from yours. Over-priced was just a term I used that just came into my head - also, I put it as a question rather than a statement, which I think makes a difference. This is one of those gray areas where for some in audio, it's not much at all and for others (like me) it's very expensive.

I didn't know about google alerts and analytics. Interesting.


I did find you because of a little side ad in FB - so it's really all your fault!!!  8) :green:

Alberto DeRoma

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Re: What is this? An overpriced tone control?
« Reply #59 on: 7 Mar 2014, 01:30 am »
Alberto,

I am responding tongue-in-cheek, hence the emoticons. It's all been cool from my end and I'm glad from yours. Over-priced was just a term I used that just came into my head - also, I put it as a question rather than a statement, which I think makes a difference. This is one of those gray areas where for some in audio, it's not much at all and for others (like me) it's very expensive.

I didn't know about google alerts and analytics. Interesting.


I did find you because of a little side ad in FB - so it's really all your fault!!!  8) :green:

Yup, I thought "Let's see what happens if I spend $5 on Facebook ads.  Took the ad down faster than you can say "Like"  :lol: