[DavidS]

Making more changes to my vinyl setup.  I have been through a ton - Moon phono, Minimax phono, onboard phono Sansui 9900A, onboard phono Doge 8 Clarity, nagra bps phono, Lyra Kleos, Ortofon Jubilee, Denon 103r, Ortofon Black, Dynavector 20XH, Dynavector 17d3.  Probably some more I am forgetting, some of it close but never one really hitting the mark.

With my other sources it was pretty easy - digital I lucked into a Lampizator Dac - game, set, and match.  My tuner is a much loved Sansui TU-717 - not going anywhere, runs 5+ hours per day.  Admit computer audio hasn't been as good but also less interested - the Dacmagic meets my needs (mostly mlb.com baseball games).

So vinyl - the great expectations but still not real magic (no lampizator magic for sure)

My next merrygoround:

1.  new psvane 12ax7 tubes for phono section of my Clarity Doge 8
2.  bought for second time a new Denon 103r - the cartridge that got the closest
3.  a budgie Cinemag 3440 SUT plugged into the Clarity MM input

I want some magic, I want the gear rotation to end, I want to spend my money my long list of must have records, vinyl should be at least as good as my cd's, even fm radio....or beginning to think maybe the turntable is the last common denominator.

[threadkiller]

If you like the 103 so much, which is great fun for the money, buy the Auditorium step up made for it, use whatever good mm phono, get A23 cables to go with, and you'll not touch your digital for months...

[vortrex]

I've had the exact combo threadkiller mentions.  if you're trying to get your WTA to sound better than FM radio, or even CD, and not succeeding, there is something seriously wrong.  I've also had the Lampizator too.  there's no reason you should not equal or better that with the WTA.

[watercourse]

In what ways is the WTA not equal to your other sources?

Took a while to dial in my Simplex, but it's more than equal to my very pleasing digital sources.

[mick wolfe]

If you like the 103 so much, which is great fun for the money, buy the Auditorium step up made for it, use whatever good mm phono, get A23 cables to go with, and you'll not touch your digital for months...
[/quote


That's a great suggestion. I've had the WTA/Denon 103R/ Aud. 23 SUT going for some time and it's superb. Phono cable is a Grover Huffman however. That being said, I'm sure the magic here is truly the 103R/Aud 23 SUT combo as the Grover doesn't subtract in any way and sounds excellent. Like Threadkiller and Vortrex say....... if set up properly, ( and that may indeed include adding the Aud 23 SUT) the WTA lights up the room leaving digital in the dust....or at least your second choice as a source.

[DavidS]

What I love about the lampizator is that it does detail and dynamics - but the overall sound is very relaxed, 3-d well rounded.  I had a modwright sony before this and it was really good too. 

My turntable has done detail, tons of it with the Kleos and Nagra phono but almost clinical with none of the dynamics and tone that seems to come with DL103.  My preamp (the Doge 8 Clarity) is very noisy with MC carts so hoping either upgrading the tubes or using the SUT out of the MM output will solve this problem.  Have to say getting vinyl to a high level has been much more challenging than I expected.

[bacobits1]

I changed my post.
Never mind I see what you are using.
Magic should be there.
I'm using the WyWires too and it sounds superb here.
Whenever using a step-up be careful of the wires used from it are shielded. What you use makes a difference in the sound too quite sensitive.
If you should decide to purchase I have the Parks Audio Cinmag 3440 and it is very nice.

[DavidS]

yes wywires for turntable connects.  Have a bunch of options for connecting the SUT to my preamp including Wywires, Zu, VenHaus, and Audio Note rca's.

I should say I have done the three things listed in my opening post - have ordered all three, only the denon 103r is in the system; waiting on the other two to arrive so will post on how it all comes together.  The Budgie SUT is so affordable its a very easy one to try out and see if the match is there with my system and cartridge.

I have a fair amount of used vinyl.  This morning was playing Allman Brothers at Fillmore East and got me thinking is the quality of vinyl quite a bit more inconsistent than digital.  The thing I love about the Lampizator is that it helps everything I play to sound good / exciting.  Think I may have market cornered on bad vinyl (I do have a VPI cleaning machine so they are clean) but wonder how much of my quality issue is related to quality of vinyl I play.  New vinyl is also pretty hit and miss and expensive - but for example do have a Lighting Hopkins reissue that is just take your breath away good sounding when I play it on the WTA.

[bacobits1]

WyWires being unshielded definitely will not work for the step-up, They will Humm real bad. For $279 the Budgie is very nice. Even though it uses the 3440 Cinmags it changed my AT OC9ML/II into something I didn't think it was capable of. I think you can upgrade those on that board too .
Sorry to change the subject.
It's an adventure for sure.

Watercourse just loves that "Golf Ball" table. I used to rib him all the time. I would love to hear one sometime though.  Actually I was looking at a used one, my wife don't know that. Shhhhhhh.

[mick wolfe]

Bacobits1 makes a good point. Shielded cable from table to SUT / shielded cable from SUT to phono pre input. After that I run totally unshielded myself, but the first two must be shielded. Vinyl playback is a hobby in itself. It can and probably will consume more time and patience than the rest of your system combined. A good record cleaning machine and the right fluid go a long way in helping older records at least get to a "listenable" stage. However, garbage in /garbage out applies strongly in analog playback. ( as you've found out) If you stick with the 103, definitely use it with a SUT of some ilk. As I've said, the Aud 23 was voiced with the 103, so it's a natural fit. That said, I'm sure there are many other fine options. The important bottom line is that you've got the right turntable to equal if not surpass your digital.

[watercourse]

What I love about the lampizator is that it does detail and dynamics - but the overall sound is very relaxed, 3-d well rounded.  I had a modwright sony before this and it was really good too. 

My turntable has done detail, tons of it with the Kleos and Nagra phono but almost clinical with none of the dynamics and tone that seems to come with DL103.  My preamp (the Doge 8 Clarity) is very noisy with MC carts so hoping either upgrading the tubes or using the SUT out of the MM output will solve this problem.  Have to say getting vinyl to a high level has been much more challenging than I expected.

Well, IME the WT tables have not often been accused of being clinical or overly detailed - in fact most people think that it sounds overdamped - until it is dialed in.
Have you adjusted VTA and damping enough to see whether these settings may be affecting the sound you're getting? And what mat do you use?
Bacobits' secret golf ball fetish finally sees the light of day...

[DavidS]

tried a couple of things today - got the 103r sounding a little better - improved dynamics and detail.  Seemed to sound better with lighter tracking force - at 2.35.  Tried some blu-tak on the headshell - this also seemed to help - especially with low end (male voices - Dave Alvin for example).  Ditched the blu-tak (for now, just doesn't seem right) and raised the cup so more dampening which seemed to have similar impact to the blu-tak.  Have arm pretty level for now but wondering about trying tail down a bit too.  Probably still a week away from new SUT and psvane tubes for my preamp.  Meanwhile the 103 only has about 10 hours on it - so still early with break in.

[threadkiller]

Oh my ..  10 hrs and you're on here asking about refinements and mentioning disappointments?
That cartridge needs hours on it before it settles in, as do most. 
Blu tak and tail down? Egads! You're definitely in the weeds.
Get thee to a qualified WTL dealer and have your table properly set up before you make any other assertions or judgements ...no wonder you prefer your digital - we all would.
Good luck and don't give up.

[watercourse]

The WT tables are definitely tweakable enough for you to experiment on your own to discover its best settings with your given cart, provided a solid grounding in turntable mechanics, but a WT dealer can provide instant gratification.
Don't give up and don't take the tone of some posts on this forum too seriously - some of us actually want to help if we can.

[mick wolfe]

As already mentioned.....the cartridge is still breaking in. What you think you're hearing in improvements via "tweaking" is nothing more than artifacts of the break-in process. There's nothing to be gained by tracking this cartridge any lighter than the 2.5 G specified. If you deviate at all, take it closer to 2.6, but no further. It's a conical stylus and not that sensitive to VTA. Those who have fiddled in this area always seem to return to setting the arm parallel to the record surface. The WTA doesn't need Blu-Tac anywhere in the set-up equation. Work with adjusting the silicon vat as you've done in the past. The rough reference is the golf ball 1/3 submerged. Make sure the threads that suspend the golf ball in the vat are oriented properly. The WTA benefits by sitting on a nice isolated wall-mount shelf system or an isolation base /platform of some ilk on the top of an equipment rack.

[doak]

HAHaha....  TOUGH LOVE from Threadkiller (as usual).   

Great stuff.   

[roscoeiii]

I know that Doge has gotten good reviews, and maybe it will sound better with an SUT, but it does seem that the preamp may be part of the problem. Maybe Psvane tubes help. Or maybe the phono stage in the preamp isn't so great.

[watercourse]

Today I decided to switch carts to see how difficult it is and how long it takes. I was going to switch to my DV20xl cart from the Benz, but remembered that I recently got my Shelter 501 mkII retipped and suspension refreshed, and needed additional break-in, so I got the mounting hardware, scale, and alignment tools (downloadable 19 degree template to check headshell angle and lined index card to check VTA).

In about 5 minutes, I had the new cart mounted, aligned, and VTF roughed in. I lowered the post to rough in VTA, noting the distance between the azimuth "tubes" protruding from the golf ball, and the lip of the damping cup: after getting all other parameters dialed in, I would use this distance as a starting point for adjusting damping.

I then played a couple of known LPs at inner and outer grooves to check for excessive distortion. I also would check azimuth with each LP. After about 5 sides, I concluded that VTA needed checking as top end lacked air and extension, and there was excessive sibilance at inner grooves.

Making necessary adjustments and listening for changes took another 3 hours, but now I have the Shelter dialed in.

NB: although the 19 degree angle is supposed to be universal with all carts, I've found that it is close enough, but sometimes some carts need further slight adjustment best done by ear or test records. Just make sure your headshell is 19 degrees, and align your cart to the headshell angle. That will get you close enough and sometimes spot-on.

PS: this is meant to show that you don't have to go running to a dealer all the time for help.

[threadkiller]

Oh dear.... I'm starting to sound like Maggie Smith in Downton Abbey...but here goes..

Azimuth is set, quite easily and with only one record and no nonsense, by placing a shiny record over the spindle. (One could use the flip side of included strobe disc as well). Place the cartridge on said disc and look at it directly from the front. With a good light turn the fly wheel and observe the body of the cartridge move. When the side reflections are equal then you have proper azimuth alignment.  That won't change with a brand new or well seasoned cartridge.

VTA, on the other hand, should be checked again after some time has been put on said cartridge.  And yes, an index card is useful for lining up the arm. And yes, do have your filament twist in the proper orientation.

And do keep that BluTak away from this table- save that for your old Dual changer.
And do follow the tracking force recommendation of the cartridge maker.

Again, best of luck.

[watercourse]

Unfortunately, azimuth does drift sometimes. See other posts in this forum about this issue, which is likely related to the golf ball being off center in the cup (while arm is over the LP side, rather than in the armrest).

I've never seen this mentioned elsewhere, but one could make up a golf ball jig by measuring the cup and ball diameters, drawing the jig on cardboard by making the circles concentric, cutting out the golf ball circle, and creating a donut, arc, or whatever size jig you need that will show you the proper distance between the golf ball and cup lip.

It being very easy to set azimuth, I'd recommend checking azimuth every couple of sides whenever you mount a new cart.

OTOH, while I've never experienced VTA drift (or VTF drift for that matter), doesn't hurt to check this as well when you're getting to know your new table.