[threadkiller]

Concerning paragraph 2, Watercourse, thanks for the great laugh today... I almost peed my pants.
Thanks...

[watercourse]

Watch yourself threadkiller. You are certainly not one to give technical advice, which I am sure you realize.

If your experience with the WT tables has truly been so simple and easy, consider yourself lucky and an outlier. As such, your experience will be weighed for its value in helping others troubleshoot and find solutions.

Remember the purpose of these forums before you post another snarky remark: to ask people for advice, and to receive assistance. Very simple.

[threadkiller]

I agree, Watercourse. But, you are giving out the wrong technical advice sometimes. Not always, mind you.
I do not mean to step on anyone's toes. But since Mr P doesn't like forums and doesn't want to moderate, it's hard to watch bad advice, at least technical, go unchallenged.

[watercourse]

Well, I'm not afraid to be wrong, but frankly I am not sure where you are coming from.

Please explain how my concept for a jig fails logically or conceptually.

[threadkiller]

Well let's see... Conceptually it's fine, and even somewhat intriguing..
yet if your table is set up correctly - follow the directions to the t or have a trained dealer do it- then it's logically unnecessary.
I was only laughing at it when flipping thru forums because at first glance it seemed as laughably screwy as the guy who posted much earlier on here about needing two ground wires and how that thread derailed into utter nonsense... there being absolutely no need.

I did see a new member post in regards to your jig idea with a 3d model and such, again I laughed a bit, but hey , it's your hobby and time so go for it. Once my table has been set I'd rather just play music and think of the next vinyl purchase. 

[watercourse]

Here's the thing about WT tables. If you've read all the classic treatises on arm, cart, and turntable relationships, you'll understand just how Firebaugh has been able to reduce these complex relationships into a relatively uncomplicated system that works better than most over-engineered tables.

The problem is only when, to paraphrase Einstein, you make a solution TOO simple. Here, with the centering of the golf ball, the directions are overly simplistic given how critical this setup parameter has proven to be IME.

Remember that setup tools have evolved over time for these tables. First Firebaugh had an alignment jig which was a one-point type. Then he dispensed with this, going with the headshell template instead. Now, I think there is enough of a user base and data points to argue that the next step is a jig for the golf ball. Except that the golf ball has been replaced with a metal cap in mkII arms, so this won't likely happen.

If there's a need, then sometimes it takes users to step up and fill it. I'm sure even WT dealers wouldn't begrudge a few tables that they dont need to set up. A jig easily and cheaply enough done and supports repeatability and consistency in setup, so why not?

[rob400]

Unfortunately, azimuth does drift sometimes. See other posts in this forum about this issue, which is likely related to the golf ball being off center in the cup (while arm is over the LP side, rather than in the armrest).

I can only speak for the LTD arm but regardless of ball position in the cup I believe the drift is linked to filament geometry as the arm crosses the LP during play (as stated in a previous post). If the azimuth is set as Charlie described at the centre point of an LP then the drift is minimal and consistent from LP to LP. My cartridge set up this way is slightly off vertical at the start, hits perfect in the middle, then off slightly (the other way) at the end of the LP side. I can't hear any distortion or imbalance in volume levels with such a small amount of deviance. If azimuth was set with the cartridge at the beginning of a side the drift by the end would of course be double and probably more significant.

[watercourse]

Thanks rob400.

When we are talking about azimuth drift, I think most people are referring to a drift from initial setting over time, rather than over the radius of the LP side. So at some point in time, azimuth is off regardless of where on the LP the arm is. Which is why I recommended to watch how azimuth changes when you mount a new cart and play a few sides.

I've actually not experienced significant drift over the LP, but the pulley on the simplex is a rubber grommet with a lot of give compared to the metal pulley on other tables.

I would also say azimuth is best set in the middle of the LP side.

[rob400]

That explains the difference Watercourse. I haven't experienced any drift per se with LTD once set up other than the radius type. It appears that all models have there own small design flaw.

[watercourse]

We may have scared the OP off... Hope you are finding your way around the table.

[DavidS]

nope not scared off - been on the beaches of mexico for past week plus.  Your replies made interesting reading.

While away the budgie sut arrived and have it hooked up between the turntable and doge 8.  Sounding very nice - in fact as nice as things have sounded in a while.  Have Bjork's latest playing tonight - nice clarity and great bass not as odd sounding as it has in past.  After the mid-expensive carts (Ortofon jubilee, Lyra Kleos, Dyna 7d3) I really like the early days of this 103r and sut combo.  Seems like a lot of people report nice sounds from 103 / cinemag matchup.

As for details:

VTA is still tail down a bit - not way down more slightly down
golf ball is middle cup - wish this was case with my putting
tracking force is 2.48 this afternoon with both weights on; no bluetak
azimuth is generally pretty easy to control with ring - once dialled in don't find this moves much
golf ball is 1/3 to 2/5 's in goop
have about 15 hours on cartridge and maybe 5 hours on sut

let me know if anything seems off here...

[watercourse]

DavidS: Welcome back, I was on vacation too but the missus was under the weather the entire time, so I was "connected" when I shouldn't have been.

Take a look at my latest post re: Simplex setup. Don't know if any of it will be helpful, but it's what has worked for me.

[DavidS]

still my WTA has never really been dialed in....

until Friday.  It was a rainy dark day.  Still not blown away with my vinyl setup - so some more time to tinker.  Been over this ground before and still looking.

1.  Took the metal tube covers off the tubes in my Doge 8 Clarity preamp
2.  pulled out old massive solid probably 40 lbs heavy maple platform - it was deep in basement unused in 5 years or so, cobwebs cleaned before I put my WTA on it, on big brass footers
3.  raised the post about as high as I have had it (post is marked with a grey felt); you know with silicon cup up too tonearm is just moderately tail end up
4.  changed cartridges to Soundsmith repaired and upgraded Dynavector 20XH (from Denon 103r) but kept the Doge at MC setting

Holy shit!  Vinyl can't be this good, reach and touch me good.  Like better than my Lampizator good.  Been playing records since Friday afternoon.  Like getting a new piece of gear that blows you away.  Thinking Threadkiller was right about the weeds.

[watercourse]

With the Amadeus, setup is easier compared to the Simplex:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127100.msg1340922#msg1340922

I've since mounted my Benz, and it was just as easy, but has better synergy with the table. Better even than the DV20XL that so is often used with this table. Also dealt with the hum by changing the wall wart.

Just spinning music now. 

[G E]

I did see a new member post in regards to your jig idea with a 3d model and such, again I laughed a bit, but hey , it's your hobby and time so go for it. Once my table has been set I'd rather just play music and think of the next vinyl purchase.

That might have been me. After trying to build centering jigs I gave up... Tolerances were way out of whack with my hand job. Still intrigued by 3 d printer...

I did build an over the top power supply which is documented elsewhere.  That was well worth the effort.

WTA can please beyond belief. Glad to hear it came together for you. A few weeks ago I heard a  VPI / Parasound phono / Merlin / Macintosh system. It was musical and well mannered. But it didn't feel alive.

Happy listening!

ge