[viggen]

Hope someone can provide me with some pointers on how to fight a ticket.

Driving on an unfamiliar road, the light turns red at an intersection, and I stop right behind the car in front of me.  After the light turns green, all the cars start moving when I see flashing lights behind me. 

After pulling me over, officer walks up to my car, and I asked him why he pulled me over.  He doesn't answer my question and just asks me for my license, registration and insurance.  I said you should at least tell me why you pulled me over.  He repeated, license, registration and insurance but in a much more impatient tone.  So, I just gave him what he wanted.

About 10 minutes later, he comes back and asked me whether I know why he pulled me over.  I said that's what I asked you earlier but you wouldn't tell me.  He said I should not have stopped where I stopped because it is after a double solid line.  I told him I didn't see any sign that said I can't stop after a double solid line.  He said there is one.  I said there wasn't and will see him in court but had to sign the damn ticket.

Here's what's on the ticket at least the parts that's somewhat legible:

81453 (c) fail to stop at _____  solid red tri light.

Right after I received the ticket, I turned back to where the "incident" happened to take some pictures.  I do see a sign but it merely says "do not stop on tracks".  Yah, this is a very odd intersection where there is a train track that runs through the road right BEFORE the intersection. 

In any case, the incident happened around 6pm which is very dark as the street is not well lit.  There is a light right behind the sign that says "do not stop on tracks" but you can't see/read it unless you're like 10 ft away from the sign because of how poorly the sign is lit and positioned.

Some pics:

My car stopped at the same spot where the white SUV on the right stopped at.


Notice no car tried to stop before the double white lines and the sign excitability says "do not stop on tracks".


Here you can see the cop car hiding behind the fence waiting for motorists to stop after the double white line.  The cop car is pulling onto the street after the light turned green going after the white SUV.


You can see in the distance there are at least two cop cars taking turns pulling cars over by popping out from behind the chain link fence. 


During the 5 minutes I stood there taking pics, I saw at least 3 cars got pulled over. 

This is what the place looks like during the day.  I do not see any warnings or signs that say do not stop after the double white line.


I believe the cop made up a rule that doesn't exist in order to help the city generate some funds.  In any case, I received my "violation information notice" in the mail.  I am given a citation number and a bail amount of $490.  But, it doesn't have any information about my violation.

I can reserve a court date but, get this, says here "This reservation will be for you to enter a plea as to the charges against you, the officer WILL NOT be present".  It also says, "If you are under the age of 18 and wish to see a Judicial Officer, you must be accompanied by a parent or legal guardian."  This means I won't even be seeing a judge but some "officer"?  Nor do I get to defend myself against my accuser.

I have a feeling this will be a kangaroo court where they will try to part me from $490 no matter what.  Or, am I being paranoid?  I think in any normal circumstance, the judge should side in my favor with the pictures I have for evidence.  And, I also have proof that the cops here are abusing their privilege to serve and protect the citizens and instead use their power for "highway robbery". 

Also, is there some kind of illegal search and seizure going on with cop pulling me over and not telling me why he pulled me over?  I don't have any evidence on this except my car was filled with eye witnesses.  My wife, mother in law, father in law and toddler were all in the car.  All cept the toddler are eye witnesses.  Perhaps have them sign a notary to take to court?

Not sure why the cop wouldn't tell me why he pulled me over the first time.  I think he wanted to check whether I already have a record either traffic or criminal before telling me why he stopped me.  Or, maybe he would have let me go had I already have a point or used up my traffic school opportunity.  I know rookie cops have a quota to fill, but this is really ridiculous.

So, what do you guys think?

[Mikeinsacramento]

I think if you go in there, and you will see a judge, the judicial officer is for minors, and talk about abuse, highway robbery, kangaroo court, et. al., you will get your ass handed to you on a silver platter.  The officer holds sway over you whether you like it or not, and the judge will back him.  What do you expect him to say?  "Gee, viggen, you're right.  That officer over there is a dunce.  I'm throwing this out along with the other 24 citations he wrote that day."

My suggestion is to throw yourself at the mercy of the court and ask for a non-moving violation.  The fine will be less and you won't accumulate any points against your record.

I wish you all the luck in the world.

[galyons]

1) Orange County, you are lucky they didn't beat you to death.
2) You must stop before the double white line at railway crossings and not enter if you cannot proceed entirely out of the zone on a green light. If you don't you have run the light.
3) When you signed the ticket you agreed to appear or  pay the fine prior to the appearance date.
4) The appearance date is to enter a plea, not the trial.  If you plead not guilty, a trial date will be set and the officer must appear or the case is dismissed.
5) Traffic cases are typically heard by judicial officers sometimes called commissioners.  At the aforementioned hearing you are only entering a plea.
6) Your pictures prove the case against you, based on your description. The  sign and double white lines are  clearly evident.
7) Call the court, ask if you can plead guilty, pay the fine and get traffic school to keep the citation off of your driving record to avoid insurance premium increases. Sometimes the citation or the courtesy letter will indicate that traffic school is an alternative.

Sorry, likely not what you want hear. If you are seriously considering fighting the ticket an attorney may be more prudent than an audio forum.   

Cheers,
Geary

[bladesmith]

You probably can get out of it, if you pay a lawyer,  twice what the actual fine is. That's how it works. 

Sorry, but many cities and states are feeling the money pinch. And are finding very unique ways of generating tax revenues. 

[Doublej]

Viggen, Do you have a CA driver's license. If so just go to traffic school. It will be the easiest way to not have it appear on your driving record from an insurance perspective.

If you don't have a CA license I don't think traffic school is an option.

[rooze]

As you pointed out, the cops were queuing up at that spot to pull people over, they wouldn't be doing that if there was any doubt over the signage, lines or anything else.
You got caught stopping on the tracks, your own photos illustrate your guilt, pay the fine, move on.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Looks like BS to me.
True, there is no sign, but it is a law about the double line. Granted, there aren't very many situations where intersections are set up like this one, but I have seen this where the double lines are keeping the driveway clear in front of fire stations. So yea, they do exist. The locations I can think of here, there are signs displayed clearly not to block the fire station driveway and to stay behind the double white lines when you're stopped at the traffic light. But in my opinion, odd and unusual traffic situations should warrant a sign marking clearly what they want you to do. Especially since public safety is the reason the lines are there in the first place.

Obviously when cops line up like cabs at a taxi stand, they're only there for the revenue, plain and simple.
The chose that spot for a same reason...... "the pickings are good". 

I don't know what that exact fine would cost in St. Louis, but a non-moving violation would be less than $100.
Almost five hundred is obscene and an obvious abuse of the fact that they "can", simply because they can.
But like Mike said, you won't convince the judge of that.

If somebody would do a little weed control, the cars wouldn't have as good a place to hide either.
Maybe a trip up there some night with a sprayer full of "Round Up" would kill them and the cops wouldn't be so concealed. Drive up, stick your arm out the window, give it a good spray and drive off. "Drive-by weed shooting". 

I wish you the best of luck man. Looks like you're getting railroaded to me....no pun intended.
Bob

[GT Audio Works]

Its a great little business they have going for themselves , isn't it ?
The old moonshiner's term"Revenuers" is more apt than ever.
Like any other job today the boss is only interested in the bottom line so these guys protect their job like any other and generate revenue.
A while back, my wife got nabbed in a mass pullover on a " highway construction zone 25 mph" ...only one thing, there was no construction at the time just open highway. She was going about 50 mph in the slow lane just following the flow of traffic. Never the less the cop was perched on the side of the road like a grizzly on a riverbank during a salmon run. Lets just say he made his quota that day !! I don't know how Ca. runs its shell game but in NJ. besides the ticket and the points , the insurance company jumps in for a bite with a 3 year surcharge that amounts to much more than the ticket !!!

I DIGRESS... BACK TO THE POINT OF THIS POST. You say the vehicle code on the ticket was 81453 (c) fail to stop  ??
well, I cant seem to find any reference to that code...but I do see 21453. if he has written it wrong on the ticket you are home free.
I once had a cop give me a parking ticket...he made a mistake on my license plate by one letter...out the window it went !!!
         Greg

[thunderbrick]

If he wrote "failure to stop" yet you stopped, or you didn't stop on the tracks, what does the double white line have to do with it?

[GT Audio Works]

Looking at the pics of the scene, It seem to me that ones attention would be focused on the signs instruction "do not stop on the tracks" and I would feel I was doing nothing wrong even if I had stopped over the white line, which you had no choice in doing since the guy in front of you stopped , where were you to go, around him? Or back up around the guy behind you ?
The sign is clearly misdirecting the issue. They want you to be safe from the train crossing gates coming down and your vehicle and trapping you in a dangerous situation,,, fine..then post a sign saying "do not stop in front of the train xing gates. Their sign fails to communicate this and actually confuses the issue, causing drivers to find themselves in a dangerous situation. The confusion of the issue is evidenced by all the traffic tickets issued on that particular spot.
A good example of how to post a sign that clearly relates its instruction is in NYC, or other traffic congested cities I imagine...they are big on do not block the intersection box.  Greg

[Mike Nomad]

The short form, as others have pointed out, is that you got caught breaking a motor vehicle law.

Maybe.

I don't know about CA, but here in TX, all signs have to have a sticker (on the back side) that certifies the sign is an approved Traffic Control Device. The sticker has an expiry, and must be renewed. If it is the same there, check to see if the sign is properly stickered. If it isn't, you have not broken any law.

Other things come to mind:

1/ Do what you have to do to make the cop show up. If you do show up, and he doesn't, you walk the fine. I've had it go that way for me on what was later determined to be a speed trap ticket.

2/ Who owns the lot the police car is (by your picture) illegally parked on? I say illegally parked because they are blocking the sidewalk. Also, there are laws concerning the use of private property by municipal/state agencies to do things that generate revenue (writing tickets falls in that category). If they were parked on easement, that is a different story.

I wouldn't get my hopes up, but, good luck.

[Mikeinsacramento]

But in my opinion, odd and unusual traffic situations should warrant a sign marking clearly what they want you to do. Especially since public safety is the reason the lines are there in the first place.

Near Railroad Tracks:

The speed limit is 15 mph within 100 feet of a railroad crossing where you cannot see the tracks for 400 feet in both directions. You may drive faster than 15 mph if the crossing is controlled by gates, a warning signal, or a flag man.

At railroad or train crossings:


    Look in both directions and listen for trains. Many crossings have multiple tracks; so, be ready to stop before crossing, if necessary. Cross railroad tracks only at designated crossings and only when it is safe to do so.
    Expect a train on any track at any time traveling in either direction. If you need to stop after crossing the tracks, wait until you can completely cross the tracks before proceeding. Make sure your vehicle clears the tracks before you stop.
    Never stop on the railroad tracks. Remember that a train cannot stop quickly or swerve out of the way. If you are on the tracks, you risk injury or death.
    Watch for vehicles that must stop before they cross train tracks. These vehicles include buses, school buses, and trucks transporting hazardous loads.
    Remember that flashing red lights mean STOP! Stop at least 15 feet, but not more than 50 feet, from the nearest track when the crossing devices are active or a person warns you a train is coming. Stop if you see a train coming or you hear the whistle, horn, or bell of an approaching train.
    Do not go under lowering gates or around lowered gates. Flashing red lights indicate you must stop and wait. Do not proceed over the crossing until the red lights stop flashing, even if the gate rises. If the gates are lowered and you do not see a train approaching, call the posted railroad emergency toll-free number or 9-1-1. Be ready to give a detailed description of your location.


http://apps.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/speed_limits.htm#speedrrx

[Sparky14]

Tough one to call....a lawyer might be able to get you out of it, but that would cost you more $$$.

If he is using 21453 he would be considering the white double line a "marked limit line".

21453.  (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

However, it appears the intersection has a marked limit line on the other side of the tracks. So the dual white lines are used to mark stopping points before the tracks.

Vehicle Code 22451 deals with railroad crossings:

22451.  (a) The driver of any vehicle or pedestrian approaching a railroad or rail transit grade crossing shall stop not less than 15 feet from the nearest rail and shall not proceed until he or she can do so safely, whenever the following conditions exist:
 
(1) A clearly visible electric or mechanical signal device or a flagman gives warning of the approach or passage of a train or car.
(2) An approaching train or car is plainly visible or is emitting an audible signal and, by reason of its speed or nearness, is an immediate hazard.
(b) No driver or pedestrian shall proceed through, around, or under any railroad or rail transit crossing gate while the gate is closed.
(c) Whenever a railroad or rail transit crossing is equipped with an automated enforcement system, a notice of a violation of this section is subject to the procedures provided in Section 40518.

(1) and (2) do not apply, there was no warning lights or visible train, so you should not have been restricted to the 15 feet limitation.

So...if you feel like arguing it....I would say go after 21453, say those double white lines do not represent the marked limit lines of the intersection. The police would have to change the violation to 22451, and I don't know if they can do that after the ticket is written.

But...just my opinion...and I am certainly no lawyer.

[viggen]

I don't even know whether my ticket is for a moving violation or not.  I just sent a message to occourts.org for them to tell me exactly what code/section that I violated and whether that is a moving violation.  Up above, I wrote 81453 (c).  But, it could be 21453 (c) as suggested by other posters. 

I think if you go in there, and you will see a judge, the judicial officer is for minors, and talk about abuse, highway robbery, kangaroo court, et. al., you will get your ass handed to you on a silver platter.  The officer holds sway over you whether you like it or not, and the judge will back him.  What do you expect him to say?  "Gee, viggen, you're right.  That officer over there is a dunce.  I'm throwing this out along with the other 24 citations he wrote that day."

My suggestion is to throw yourself at the mercy of the court and ask for a non-moving violation.  The fine will be less and you won't accumulate any points against your record.

I wish you all the luck in the world.

[viggen]

1) I was in the car with my whole family there.  Would be quite a site.  Wish my wife would be fast/smart enough to film it, then I can be the next Rod King.  Let's all get along~
2) I think it would be impossible to enter crossing and clear it on a green light because of how the light is situated so far back from where the double white line is.

1) Orange County, you are lucky they didn't beat you to death.
2) You must stop before the double white line at railway crossings and not enter if you cannot proceed entirely out of the zone on a green light. If you don't you have run the light.
3) When you signed the ticket you agreed to appear or  pay the fine prior to the appearance date.
4) The appearance date is to enter a plea, not the trial.  If you plead not guilty, a trial date will be set and the officer must appear or the case is dismissed.
5) Traffic cases are typically heard by judicial officers sometimes called commissioners.  At the aforementioned hearing you are only entering a plea.
6) Your pictures prove the case against you, based on your description. The  sign and double white lines are  clearly evident.
7) Call the court, ask if you can plead guilty, pay the fine and get traffic school to keep the citation off of your driving record to avoid insurance premium increases. Sometimes the citation or the courtesy letter will indicate that traffic school is an alternative.

Sorry, likely not what you want hear. If you are seriously considering fighting the ticket an attorney may be more prudent than an audio forum.   

Cheers,
Geary

[viggen]

Yup, there should be more signage indicating where the double white lines are and to keep clear of that area in case the light turns red.  There's just no time for driver to react after the light turns yellow to clear the area.

And, if you're implying that the city clearly does not care about public safety in this situation, then I agree with you.  I don't even know whether any trains still run on those tracks, but, if there is, then cars are seriously in danger of getting run over because of the lack of effective signage.  It makes me a bit angry that the cops know this to be a potential hazard and instead of saving lives by correcting the signage instead they profit of it.

Ticket prices here are exorbitant.  My wife's coworker got caught going 35 in a 30 and had to pay $350.  But, at least his is a moving violation.  I am not sure whether mine is even a moving one. 

Looks like BS to me.
True, there is no sign, but it is a law about the double line. Granted, there aren't very many situations where intersections are set up like this one, but I have seen this where the double lines are keeping the driveway clear in front of fire stations. So yea, they do exist. The locations I can think of here, there are signs displayed clearly not to block the fire station driveway and to stay behind the double white lines when you're stopped at the traffic light. But in my opinion, odd and unusual traffic situations should warrant a sign marking clearly what they want you to do. Especially since public safety is the reason the lines are there in the first place.

Obviously when cops line up like cabs at a taxi stand, they're only there for the revenue, plain and simple.
The chose that spot for a same reason...... "the pickings are good". 

I don't know what that exact fine would cost in St. Louis, but a non-moving violation would be less than $100.
Almost five hundred is obscene and an obvious abuse of the fact that they "can", simply because they can.
But like Mike said, you won't convince the judge of that.

If somebody would do a little weed control, the cars wouldn't have as good a place to hide either.
Maybe a trip up there some night with a sprayer full of "Round Up" would kill them and the cops wouldn't be so concealed. Drive up, stick your arm out the window, give it a good spray and drive off. "Drive-by weed shooting". 

I wish you the best of luck man. Looks like you're getting railroaded to me....no pun intended.
Bob

[viggen]

I guess it IS 21453.  The 2 is just written like an 8.

Its a great little business they have going for themselves , isn't it ?
The old moonshiner's term"Revenuers" is more apt than ever.
Like any other job today the boss is only interested in the bottom line so these guys protect their job like any other and generate revenue.
A while back, my wife got nabbed in a mass pullover on a " highway construction zone 25 mph" ...only one thing, there was no construction at the time just open highway. She was going about 50 mph in the slow lane just following the flow of traffic. Never the less the cop was perched on the side of the road like a grizzly on a riverbank during a salmon run. Lets just say he made his quota that day !! I don't know how Ca. runs its shell game but in NJ. besides the ticket and the points , the insurance company jumps in for a bite with a 3 year surcharge that amounts to much more than the ticket !!!

I DIGRESS... BACK TO THE POINT OF THIS POST. You say the vehicle code on the ticket was 81453 (c) fail to stop  ??
well, I cant seem to find any reference to that code...but I do see 21453. if he has written it wrong on the ticket you are home free.
I once had a cop give me a parking ticket...he made a mistake on my license plate by one letter...out the window it went !!!
         Greg

[viggen]

I totally agree with you: my sentiments exactly.  If they don't want you to block a certain area, then they have to make an effort to make it known like with the signages and pavement paint you've indicated.

Looking at the pics of the scene, It seem to me that ones attention would be focused on the signs instruction "do not stop on the tracks" and I would feel I was doing nothing wrong even if I had stopped over the white line, which you had no choice in doing since the guy in front of you stopped , where were you to go, around him? Or back up around the guy behind you ?
The sign is clearly misdirecting the issue. They want you to be safe from the train crossing gates coming down and your vehicle and trapping you in a dangerous situation,,, fine..then post a sign saying "do not stop in front of the train xing gates. Their sign fails to communicate this and actually confuses the issue, causing drivers to find themselves in a dangerous situation. The confusion of the issue is evidenced by all the traffic tickets issued on that particular spot.
A good example of how to post a sign that clearly relates its instruction is in NYC, or other traffic congested cities I imagine...they are big on do not block the intersection box.  Greg

[viggen]

I don't think we have that sticker regulation for signs in california.  That's actually a good idea to have since outdated signs can be a hazard.  I don't know who owns the land where the cop car parked at.  I would assume whoever owns the railroad?

I did get pulled over once by a cop who was hiding behind some gates in front of a private gated community.  She initially said I failed to stop at a red light.  I told her I saw her hiding there, so I stopped extra long to make sure she wouldn't pull me over for stopping me.  She then wrote me up for not wearing seatbelts.  I was wearing my belts, but she claimed I wasn't.  She said it's my first offense, so I just need to pay $45. 

The short form, as others have pointed out, is that you got caught breaking a motor vehicle law.

Maybe.

I don't know about CA, but here in TX, all signs have to have a sticker (on the back side) that certifies the sign is an approved Traffic Control Device. The sticker has an expiry, and must be renewed. If it is the same there, check to see if the sign is properly stickered. If it isn't, you have not broken any law.

Other things come to mind:

1/ Do what you have to do to make the cop show up. If you do show up, and he doesn't, you walk the fine. I've had it go that way for me on what was later determined to be a speed trap ticket.

2/ Who owns the lot the police car is (by your picture) illegally parked on? I say illegally parked because they are blocking the sidewalk. Also, there are laws concerning the use of private property by municipal/state agencies to do things that generate revenue (writing tickets falls in that category). If they were parked on easement, that is a different story.

I wouldn't get my hopes up, but, good luck.

[bonsai]

What song were you listening to when you got pulled over?