[AJinFLA]

It's impossible for any speaker to radiate in such a way as to avoid room acoustics problems.

Ethan, what is a "room acoustics" problem? Is it the same as a "human binaural perception" problem?
If not, why would it matter? Interested primarily in scientifically verifiable evidence, not conjecture. Thanks.

Once sound gets into the room, it bounces around creating peaks, nulls, flutter echo, early reflections, modal ringing, and reverb in larger rooms. There is no avoiding this.

Those all sound very scary Ethan. Can you site some peer reviewed blind studies of living rooms showing how scary those all are? How these relevant psycho-acoustic "problems" were solved. Presumably with so called "treatments"? Are there any negatives to doing so? Or are there other, possibly more effective solutions?
Is it possible for any of those to be perceivable as benign or even "good", rather than just "viewable" as bad?

So in order of importance:
1) The room
2) The speakers

Really?
To the average person out there with a furnished living room? Is that pure hearsay, audiophile type preference/opinion, or is there some robust scientific evidence to support this?

TIA

cheers,

AJ

[jimdgoulding]

Take care not to overdamp the room.  There is a price to pay.  First thing interested readers, get your speakers out a ways from surrounding walls.  That's assuming you are not listening with speakers designed for corner placement.  Your seat, too.  You should want to hear what's in your recordings first and foremost.  Do not assume anything.

[jimdgoulding]

I think I spoke to soon and in doing so may have lessened an earned response to the chap before me.  Sorry, mate,  hence the bump.

[Ethan Winer]

Interested primarily in scientifically verifiable evidence, not conjecture.

I'll ignore the tone of your post and simply show "scientifically verifiable evidence" as Before and After graphs below.

--Ethan

[grsimmon]

Mr. Linkwitz is a damn genius as far as I'm concerned.   If you think that's going too far,  perhaps we can agree on "extremely bright."    I happen to agree with him about speaker radiation etc. being more important than the room.   Which has lead me to 4 speaker companies to focus my attention:  Linkwitz,  Duevel,  Morrison Audio,  and Mirage (now defunct).  It's too bad about Mirage because they had access to some of the best speaker testing facilities in the world.   Anyways,  to understand what Linkwitz is saying,  how he arrived at that conclusion,  you have to be patient and read most or all of his website.   It's a lot,  but it's worth it,  and in my opinion his website is one of the absolute best resources on the internet for truly understanding good loudspeaker design and implementation.   For the record,  he's not against room treatment,  he simply says that the normal stuff in the average living room is sufficient IF you are operating properly designed speakers.   He also says his speakers are not the only ones;  sometime recently under his "what's new" section he had a really good writeup (maybe even what the o.p. is referencing) where he named some names and I believe Magnepan "came close."   

[grsimmon]

And Ethan,  unless you can give some details about those graphs,  they're not very helpful.

[AJinFLA]

I'll ignore the tone of your post and simply show "scientifically verifiable evidence" as Before and After graphs below.

Thanks Ethan, yes, please use logic, ignore "tone" and stick with the substance of the "argument". Unfortunately, not seeing any, as the only thing you've shown, is "graphs". Zero details of anything.
If you'd like to clarify details for the viewing audience and the perceptual relevance each, I'm all eyes...excuse me, ears  .

cheers,

AJ

[AJinFLA]

...and Mirage (now defunct).

  http://www.miragespeakers.com/

[jimdgoulding]

http://www.miragespeakers.com/

Many thanks for the link, AJ.  Happy to be wrong about their demise.

[grsimmon]

Mirage is no longer in business.  They were bought by API,  which was later bought by Klipsch Group,  which was later bought by Audiovox.  That Mirage website linked to is maintained by Audiovox for support purposes only.   No ongoing inventory is supplied by Vann's,  Crutchfield, or any former dealers.  If you call the Mirage phone number, I believe it goes nowhere.

[Davey]

You don't have to read ALL the website. 

Siegfried has recently put up an excellent "recap" page (Sound Field Control) which well outlines his thinking and recent designs with regard to room interaction.

Check it out.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Sound_field/Field_control.htm

Cheers,

Dave.

[JLM]

Mr. Linkwitz is a damn genius as far as I'm concerned.   If you think that's going too far,  perhaps we can agree on "extremely bright."    I happen to agree with him about speaker radiation etc. being more important than the room.   Which has lead me to 4 speaker companies to focus my attention:  Linkwitz,  Duevel,  Morrison Audio,  and Mirage (now defunct).  It's too bad about Mirage because they had access to some of the best speaker testing facilities in the world.   Anyways,  to understand what Linkwitz is saying,  how he arrived at that conclusion,  you have to be patient and read most or all of his website.   It's a lot,  but it's worth it,  and in my opinion his website is one of the absolute best resources on the internet for truly understanding good loudspeaker design and implementation.   For the record,  he's not against room treatment,  he simply says that the normal stuff in the average living room is sufficient IF you are operating properly designed speakers.   He also says his speakers are not the only ones;  sometime recently under his "what's new" section he had a really good writeup (maybe even what the o.p. is referencing) where he named some names and I believe Magnepan "came close."   

Floyd E. Toole in his book 'Sound Reproduction' agrees with the average/normal room concepts, but does offer advice for optimal use of absorption/diffusion.  I do like much of what Linkwitz believes in, but can't accept the dipole concept.

Toole's big thing is the need, below the Schroeder frequency (that varies by room, but is roughly 110 - 160 Hz in most residential cases) sound travels in waves, with the room behaving like pushing water along the length of a shallow bath tub.  The waves rebound off the far end and depending on frequency and location can double or cancel out with other waves.  No amount of treatment or EQ can 'correct' for this.  The solution is the use of multiple subs, distributed around the room.  Search AC for 'swam'.  Using a swam of subs, Linkwitz's Pluto makes perfect sense.

[AJinFLA]

Floyd E. Toole in his book 'Sound Reproduction' agrees with the average/normal room concepts, but does offer advice for optimal use of absorption/diffusion.  I do like much of what Linkwitz believes in, but can't accept the dipole concept.

It's more than a concept, not for everyone and preferences vary. What about adding controlled spectral energy back into the diffuse field, do you not accept? Ever measured around your loudspeakers, or even just from behind, in free space?

Toole's big thing is the need, below the Schroeder frequency (that varies by room, but is roughly 110 - 160 Hz in most residential cases)

He does stress the importance of smooth amplitude response, at LF. No question, that is preferred to a peaked response. But what about a response free of peaks, but with notches? Does the Q of the notch matter? Do we want to add extra energy to fill notches "seen" by an omni mic recording only pressure, not the volume velocities in the x,y or z axis? Is that how we hear? Is "smooth amplitude between 10-160hz at an omni mic, with steady state signals" the determinant for LF "sound quality" in rooms? What about detection of impulsive sounds, recorded with content down to 40hz stereophonically? Should that be considered?
Btw, the majority of "rooms" I have measured in show issues well above 160hz, sometimes as high as 500hz. What is the solution there? Gauze and bandaids? Which have the surgical precion of a sledge hammer?

sound travels in waves, with the room behaving like pushing water along the length of a shallow bath tub.  The waves rebound off the far end and depending on frequency and location can double or cancel out with other waves. 

That is a poor analogy for 2 somewhat hemispherical soundwave generators, sitting on the ground plane of an asymmetrically leaky 3 dimensional box.

No amount of treatment or EQ can 'correct' for this.  The solution is the use of multiple subs, distributed around the room.  Search AC for 'swam'.  Using a swam of subs, Linkwitz's Pluto makes perfect sense.

That is "one" solution for certain levels of knowledge and preferences. It is not the solution for everyone, no more so than bandaids and gauze everywhere, thanks.

cheers,

AJ

[Freo-1]

While I agree the room plays a very important part in the reproduction.  the speaker (IMHO) is still the single largest largest driving factor in sound reproduction.  What really brought this home was exposure to speakers such as those made by ATC, especially those that employ the Super Linear drivers.  Their 3" and 6" inch drivers are among the absolute best the industry has to offer, period.   I'll all for room treatments, but the room treatments in the world cannot make up for a pedestrian set of drivers compared to speakers such as ATC's. 


BTW, there is a soundproof chamber where I work, and it's spooky too spend any time in it.  One does not realize how much background there is around until one steps into a chamber such as this to hear essentially no noise.  Quite a revelation.   

[jimdgoulding]

"Output volume and dynamic range of the loudspeakers has to mimic the live event for the illusion to be believable."  That's from Linkwicz and is underappreciated by a lot of folks I know.  What Linkwicz said is of particular importance to me when listening to classical music or any music made on location especially acoustic music.  I tell folks something like this . . .  You and I go to a concert hall.  We're not season ticket holders so we most likely are not gonna find seats near the stage.  But, let's say we get lucky and can sit in the center, ten rows into the hall from the stage.  Well, judicious use of ye olde volume control can put you there.  Too much volume and the stage can become distorted with oversized and crowded instruments and the ambient awareness of the recording site reduced.  Three dimensionality and the "whole" is compromised.  Now, thrill seekers are probably gonna dismiss this.

I have a particular album I use to demonstrate this and you may have something as well.  In the photo on the back cover, two mikes are shown on a tall stand in front of the ensemble and in between where the conductor is standing.  The setting looks like it is in the wing of an old castle or abbey with exposed stone walls.  With the volume control at a high level, your perspective is about where the conductor is standing and very near to the players.  The players are in your face.  Back down the volume and it's as tho you moved back some and into the hall.  The group becomes realistically sized as if you were in attendance and spaced just like in the photo.  Their room becomes my room

Other kinds of music and made in a studio or on location I amp up to my heart's content.  Once I was seated so close to John Coltrane in a club I could have reached out and touched the bell of his horn.  I could see Elvin Jones' shirt was wringing wet with sweat but Trane made all the group keep their jackets on.  In this case, the stage becomes my room by advancing the volume control!

The volume control can make recordings unrealistic in your room if misapplied no matter the speaker or the treatment. 

[AJinFLA]

The speaker (IMHO) is still the single largest largest driving factor in sound reproduction.  What really brought this home was exposure to speakers such as those made by ATC..

Freo, I'm starting to get this strange feeling that you just might like ATC speakers....

Experience tracking problems with you turntable???....ATC speakers is the answer!! 

cheers,

AJ

[Freo-1]

Experience tracking problems with you turntable???....ATC speakers is the answer!! 

cheers,

AJ

Now you're just being silly!   

Seriously, a high quality speaker that handles all the dynamic contrasts from classical music with minimum distortion and breakup in a accurate manner is more important in most real world listening environments is the single largest factor in music reproduction.

[jimdgoulding]

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_rectangular_room.php

For interested parties who may not know, this, too, is reliable information.  Get those speakers out from those contributing walls if you have the space before concerning yourself with treatments to let what's in the recording occupy your room similarly. 

[avahifi]

For what it is worth, my sound room walls are all covered with acoustic wallpaper and the ceiling with 1" Sonex.  This turned a horrid box sounding suburban family room into a very quiet and listenable space for high resolution music playback.

I can give a demo of the benefits to any of you that just want to call me.  I can rap on a wall a few inches around the corner of an acoustic fabric treated wall and the the treated wall itself.  The result is obvious even over the phone.   651-330-9871 if you want to hear this yourself.  The walls and ceilings each cost $700 and I would not trade the effects for the most expensive cables you could think of.

Its not perfect, but lots of irregular surfaces and thick carpet helps too.  Acoustic fabric wallpaper is available at any high end wallpaper shop and is available in a variety of colors and textures.  The only down side is that my cat can climb it (Spidercat) and once in a while he brings a panel down in a heap on top of him.  Fortunately easy to put back up and fix too.

Frank Van Alstine

[Ethan Winer]

Ethan,  unless you can give some details about those graphs,  they're not very helpful.

Tell me what part of Before and After is not clear and to you I'll be glad to elaborate.

The room shown in those graphs is 16 x 11.5 by 8 feet high. Full details here:

Hearing is Believing

--Ethan