[orthobiz]

I think 35K is cool. I'm never getting one, so who cares how much it costs...

Paul

[Ericus Rex]

The PDF with the information is really a sales brochure.  Beside the pivot alignment, it also has some kind of non-rotating metal film bearings.  That uses up the potential for ground breaking technology.  Oh, it also has a switchable cueing light.  I think all the other feature have been done before.  Maybe other designs will incorporate similar bearings or pivot alignment if the future.  In that respect you could be right.
neo

I think the tonearm is an old enough, and simple enough (physically speaking), invention that a ground-breaking new design now is highly unlikely.

I do wonder if it is manufactured using the 'latest methods and technology' (whatever that actually means) which might result in a level of precision that was previously unattainable.  This could justify some of it's price.

[neobop]

I guess that depends on what is meant by ground breaking.  Do you know of another arm that aligns the pivots to offset angle rather than the arm tube?  The bearings seem unique as well.  How much difference these innovations make, remain to be seen.  I'm sure some reviewers will wax poetic, and declare it the best thing since sliced bread, but give it a couple of years to get some perspective on its relative worth.

Here's another interesting arm.  It has no offset angle and it's not a DJ arm. 
http://www.astrasuite.com/viv-lab.html

This arm eliminates the difference in offset and arm pivot alignment altogether and the difference in force vectors.  No anti-skate necessary but some increased alignment error depending on length.  It might sound better than the  Moghaddam arm.  Some people feel that offset and anti-skate are the limiting factor in any pivoting design.  This one is around 4 to $5K.   
neo

[woodsyi]

I was intrigued by Schröder LT when I saw it at RMAF 2012.  I think it's 8.9K.  I think I would try the LT before this 3.5k one.  Don't get me wrong.  I would try this one too if the opportunity came up but I am just not jumping through the hoops to arrange one.   

[Chaos32]

Hi, welcome to the monkey house.
Have you heard the arm? 

Seems like the only real innovation is aligning the pivots with the offset rather than the armtube.  Looks like a nonstandard connector in the bottom so you have to use their cable.  The price is ridiculous. 
neo

Hello Neobop,

Thanks for the welcome. Yes I have heard it on several ocassions including once during a demo by Touraj.

[Nick B]

I was intrigued by Schröder LT when I saw it at RMAF 2012.  I think it's 8.9K.  I think I would try the LT before this 3.5k one.  Don't get me wrong.  I would try this one too if the opportunity came up but I am just not jumping through the hoops to arrange one.   

Very interesting find, especially the oil floated pivot. I guess it's a reasonable price in the realm of high end audio

[jimdgoulding]

Oil floated pivot?  Hmmm.  Does that mean there are no bearings?  And, don't the bearings of most quality pivoted arms reside in an oil bath?  At least, sorta? 

[macrojack]

To my way of thinking this price cannot be justified by assessing the cost of materials, the innovative technology it may or may not deliver, the amount of labor required to assemble it or the performance rewards above and beyond other arms available for a fraction of the price. Someone attempted to suggest that the R&D costs are the reason for the steep price. That's the argument advanced by the pharmaceutical people to justify charging $1000/pill.

Perhaps this Touraj fellow is looking for those who don't need any justification for spending $35K. If they buy his schtick, maybe they will buy his arm. It can't hurt to try.

Has anyone here ever laid out that much money for a single piece of audio gear? Don't be shy --- let's hear about it. I confess to never even considering such a move.

[TONEPUB]

To my way of thinking this price cannot be justified by assessing the cost of materials, the innovative technology it may or may not deliver, the amount of labor required to assemble it or the performance rewards above and beyond other arms available for a fraction of the price. Someone attempted to suggest that the R&D costs are the reason for the steep price. That's the argument advanced by the pharmaceutical people to justify charging $1000/pill.

Perhaps this Touraj fellow is looking for those who don't need any justification for spending $35K. If they buy his schtick, maybe they will buy his arm. It can't hurt to try.

Has anyone here ever laid out that much money for a single piece of audio gear? Don't be shy --- let's hear about it. I confess to never even considering such a move.

Which is kind of why you aren't qualified to make a comment about a piece of gear that you haven't listened to extensively, nor any other components of that nature.

We've got one coming in for review.  I've listened to a lot of tables in the 35-100k category and curious how this one will perform.  It's impossible to tell at a show.   But definitely curious to put one on identical tables with matching Lyra Atlas cartridges and see how it performs vs. say, an SME V, TriPlanar and Talea.

Who knows, maybe it will be amazing?

Just because you can't afford to play doesn't mean the product is automatically of no worth.

This is always such a boring line of commentary.

[Nick B]

Oil floated pivot?  Hmmm.  Does that mean there are no bearings?  And, don't the bearings of most quality pivoted arms reside in an oil bath?  At least, sorta?

It would seem so. But then wouldn't there be some friction on the side walls?

[toocool4]

Hey TONEPUB you are one of a hand full of people that have actually red the post as intended.

It would be good to read the review in your magazine once you have had a chance to listen to it.

[neobop]

Oil floated pivot?  Hmmm.  Does that mean there are no bearings?  And, don't the bearings of most quality pivoted arms reside in an oil bath?  At least, sorta?

It's not a unipivot.  Instead of conventional bearings it has stationary polymer-metal laminate film.  Hence the oil.  The claim is the first noiseless bearings.
No friction spec is provided.  It also has a one piece titanium armtube/headshell which is difficult to machine.  240mm effective length.  Would be interesting to compare to a great air bearing linear tracker.
neo

[neobop]

To my way of thinking this price cannot be justified by assessing the cost of materials, the innovative technology it may or may not deliver, the amount of labor required to assemble it or the performance rewards above and beyond other arms available for a fraction of the price. Someone attempted to suggest that the R&D costs are the reason for the steep price. That's the argument advanced by the pharmaceutical people to justify charging $1000/pill.

Perhaps this Touraj fellow is looking for those who don't need any justification for spending $35K. If they buy his schtick, maybe they will buy his arm. It can't hurt to try.

Has anyone here ever laid out that much money for a single piece of audio gear? Don't be shy --- let's hear about it. I confess to never even considering such a move.

No doubt about it, you're right.  Dealer cost on this is probably $21K.  That's 60%.  Even that price can't be justified by cost of materials etc.  This seems like a new company.  Roksan is a mid-fi company and it looks like Touraj Moghaddam is going for the super high end. 

You don't need qualifications to be of the opinion that this item is overpriced, regardless of performance.  It is interesting, nevertheless. 
neo

[Ericus Rex]

No doubt about it, you're right.  Dealer cost on this is probably $21K.  That's 60%.  Even that price can't be justified by cost of materials etc.  This seems like a new company.  Roksan is a mid-fi company and it looks like Touraj Moghaddam is going for the super high end. 

If this is the case then maybe he has to pay for some very expensive new CNC tooling.  At any rate, I don't know why everyone's getting so prickly about it.  There are hundreds of other overpriced items in this 'hobby' and millions of overpriced items outside of it.  We can show the designer our dissatisfaction with his pricing by buying something else that we think is a better value.  There are lots of other choices in all our price ranges.  Why waste our energy by bitching?

[neobop]

If this is the case then maybe he has to pay for some very expensive new CNC tooling.  At any rate, I don't know why everyone's getting so prickly about it.  There are hundreds of other overpriced items in this 'hobby' and millions of overpriced items outside of it.  We can show the designer our dissatisfaction with his pricing by buying something else that we think is a better value.  There are lots of other choices in all our price ranges.  Why waste our energy by bitching?

I think because it's disappointing.  Chaos32 has heard the arm on several occasions and says it sounds good.  I believe him, but maybe more is revealed by what he didn't say.  Normally, business start-up costs are amortized over a period of years, not by individual sales.

I've been told that the vast majority of pivoting arms, excluding unipivots, are aligned to the offset, so that's not different.  I thought only a few were, but when I take a closer look, the pivots usually intersect the arm tube at an angle. 
neo

[Chaos32]

I think because it's disappointing.  Chaos32 has heard the arm on several occasions and says it sounds good.  I believe him, but maybe more is revealed by what he didn't say.  Normally, business start-up costs are amortized over a period of years, not by individual sales.
neo

Hello Neobop,

Primarily, I am a bit reluctant to comment is because I do know Touraj in a social setting but I am just a hobbyist and am not involve in the industry.

Let me perhaps give a little of my perspective and insight on the arm. I heard the demo with the arm partnered with a Transrotor...Micromagic cartridge and FM Acoustics downstream. I am familiar with most of the equipment listed except for the Transrotor...mostly because I am using Touraj's upgraded Artemiz 2 as well as some of the equipment listed. I would say while the Artemiz 2 isn't as good, there are certainly common sound traits only better. Overall, I do not dissect music and can say, listening to that demo setup I found it very musical with no emphasis on any particular spectrum of the music.

On the other several occasions I had the opportunity to listen to the arm, much of the equipment was of the makes mentioned above as well. I have not heard this arm in my setup yet and would reserve comments on how good is good...how huge an improvement it is over my arm for example.

Having said that, I do find it hard to swallow the price..perhaps it's because my pockets are not deep enough 

[jimdgoulding]

The arm sounds good.  No doubt.  So do a lot of arms.  The difference in cost vs. I dare say hair splitting improvements above some arms costing a lot less is incomprehensible to my mind.  But, that might be of little concern if I had the money, but I doubt it.  My ego won't condone very much foolishness.  For those of us who are discriminating because we have to be, value is a factor in our decision making.  I value the stage I'm getting since replacing my arm.  It's more coherently expansive and instruments are better separated with greater individual presence.  Space is more tangible and believable.  The front end of my room pulsates with new found detail and comprehensible life.  It's subtle mind you, but it's there.  While the arm under discussion may improve these and other things further, it surely cannot commensurate with the difference in its price.  I'd rather spent six months in Paris hearing the real thing.  That, my ego and sensibilities can be the more comfortable with.  Or, Milan, maybe, or both.

[toocool4]

I think because it's disappointing.  Chaos32 has heard the arm on several occasions and says it sounds good.  I believe him, but maybe more is revealed by what he didn't say.  Normally, business start-up costs are amortized over a period of years, not by individual sales.

I've been told that the vast majority of pivoting arms, excluding unipivots, are aligned to the offset, so that's not different.  I thought only a few were, but when I take a closer look, the pivots usually intersect the arm tube at an angle. 
neo

Wow if people talked more about what they know, rather than what somebody else have said we may have better information on the internet. I only talk about what I have listened to and know for a fact rather than recite 3rd or 4th hand, we all know about Chinese whispers.  

[neobop]

Jim,
Funny, one of the first things I thought of when reading the price of this arm, is how many concert tickets, evenings at a club, etc. $35K would buy. 

If anyone is interested in other opinions there's a thread on Agon:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1390758454&openfrom&1&4#1

neo

[neobop]

Toocool,
I admit to being initially snowed by the PDF, claiming different effective length in the vertical and horizontal plains.  Once it was pointed out that offset pivots are more common than not, it was easy to visualize on numerous arms.  3rd or 4th hand fact has nothing to do with it. 

Did you expect to open a thread like this and no one talk about the price?   
It doesn't matter what your intent was, people can say what they want. 
neo