[Martyn]

I've also been curious about Decware amps. Do these fit the sort of specifications that the original poster is interested in?

http://www.decware.com/newsite/tubes.html

IS there anyone out there familiar with these amps? Can you compare to Music Reference or some of the other amps being discussed here?

I looked at the Torii Mk4 a couple of times over the last year or so. I came to the conclusion that there's too much marketing spiel for my tastes, plus the price went from $2,500 to $3,500 very quickly. Good for him if he has that much demand, but I lost interest quite quickly.

[Martyn]

I've got a Line Magnetic Audio integrated tube amp that I like alot. Here http://donbetteraudio.com/products/amplifiers/ at top of page.
I did a review of this amp here- http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=104440.0
They also have other models and some SET amps too. FWIW

Thanks for the links, Geowak. I see from your review that we have a similar approach in that we both like female vocals and also like to use strings and horns for auditions (incidentally, I find that Alison Krauss' "The Lucky One" is excellent for showing up mid-range resonances in speakers).

My feelings about Chinese amps are similar to those of another AC member who responded to your review: I'm not ready to spend that much money on a Chinese product yet. In fact, I make a habit of avoiding all Chinese products as best I can, but that's another story. I just take these kinds of positions sometimes, but thanks for contributing!

[Martyn]

Martyn I am not sure of the current status but I know Roger (Music Reference) has discussed amp kits in the past. Maybe you could talk to him and get an idea if he has anything available or if there is something in the works.

Thanks, Tull Skull. Another great idea!

[yerguy]

Unless you are absolutely set on building your own which is NO small undertaking, I'd highly suggest you consider the tube amps or integrated's from Rogue Audio.  Literally, state of the art topology, clean, simple solid performance that is beyond their price point and...designed, manufactured right here in the good ol' USA with all American parts.

The best part is if you've a question or problem, chances are a call or email will put you in contact with the owner/designer of your amp.  The personalized service is like no one else in the audio biz.

I think the best part of tube gear is playing with what they call "Tube Rolling" where misc. tube substitution can drastically change the character/sonics of your amp.

[Martyn]

Not absolutely set...but generally of the opinion that one ought to be able to get the same performance at a lower cost for a labour-intensive product. I'm not competent to build an amplifier from a circuit diagram, but give me a comprehensive bill of materials (or better still, a kit of parts) and a decent instruction manual and I'll have a good chance of success (as long as nothing goes wrong). I enjoy building my own casework too, but ultimately it doesn't matter how good the presentation is if the performance is lacking.

As I alluded to earlier, I don't really appreciate tube-rolling yet. To me it seems like the difference between taste and truth: I can have a dozen different single malts in my cupboard and enjoy them all, but show me a portrait of someone and I'll want the original - not the Photoshopped version. For me, audio is about sound reproduction and there should be only one version of the truth.

[Ericus Rex]

As far as tube rolling is concerned, the amps I recommended will all sound great with their stock tubes.  You can plug and play right out of the box and enjoy yourself.  Rolling can be expensive but for tubeaholics like myself it's really fun and changes up things nicely.  It's your choice.

As for your goal of 'true and faithful reproduction' I think that's a pie-in-the-sky goal to shoot for.  If you think about it, you have no control over many aspects of what is true and faithful.  What's on the CD and what happened in the studio are very likely two totally different events.  There have been many 'skews' to the original sound between mic and laser lens.  Additionally, we pick our other components, especially speakers, based on our own ideals of sound which may or may not gel with the original event.  If you want to stick with faithful reproduction of what is on the CD (or whatever medium you choose) then there are many sterile ss components to choose from.  But if you really want to enjoy what you hear then tubes are the way to go in my opinion.

Back to the Rogue and Music Reference amps; neither are euphoric tube amps.  They are both about as neutral as tubes can possibly get...which I think is your goal.  But they still contain tube magic which some might say goes against true and faithful reproduction.

[Freo-1]

As far as tube rolling is concerned, the amps I recommended will all sound great with their stock tubes.  You can plug and play right out of the box and enjoy yourself.  Rolling can be expensive but for tubeaholics like myself it's really fun and changes up things nicely.  It's your choice.

As for your goal of 'true and faithful reproduction' I think that's a pie-in-the-sky goal to shoot for.  If you think about it, you have no control over many aspects of what is true and faithful.  What's on the CD and what happened in the studio are very likely two totally different events.  There have been many 'skews' to the original sound between mic and laser lens.  Additionally, we pick our other components, especially speakers, based on our own ideals of sound which may or may not gel with the original event.  If you want to stick with faithful reproduction of what is on the CD (or whatever medium you choose) then there are many sterile ss components to choose from.  But if you really want to enjoy what you hear then tubes are the way to go in my opinion.

Back to the Rogue and Music Reference amps; neither are euphoric tube amps.  They are both about as neutral as tubes can possibly get...which I think is your goal.  But they still contain tube magic which some might say goes against true and faithful reproduction.

Well stated.  The reality is NO setup will sound exactly like a real live musical event.  However, I am on the same page with Eric here, in that tubes can subjectively sound closer to real music/instruments than solid state.  Not everyone agrees, and that is fine.  We all have our bias/preferences, and that factors into our equipment decisions. 

Speakers are by far the most important choice in the playback chain. For my tastes, the ATC speakers (with the super linear drivers), are the closest one can get to accurate reproduction.  They are not euphonic, which means a bad recording will play accordingly, while a good recording will stand out more than with most other speakers.  Horses for courses.

Once the speakers are chosen, THEN make sure amp that will drive them properly throughout the frequency band/impedance curve of the speakers.  Both the tube amp brands mentioned will work fine.  There are other brands that would work well also, such as Conrad/Johnson and VTL.

[Martyn]

Well stated indeed - thank you both for your thoughtful comments.

I'm less interested in reproducing a performance and more interested in reproducing the way an instrument actually sounds. I find that a good recording and decent equipment typically produces a much better result than the actual concert hall. The concert involves too many compromises, although these tend to be off-set by the emotion of the event. Many of those compromises can be eliminated in my living room, but if a harp sounds like a dulcimer, the emotion will be gone.

I agree that speakers are the most important link in the chain. I haven't quite achieved "true and faithful reproduction" yet, but I'm getting closer!

[borism]

OTLs have not been mentioned so far. So, let me make a case for consideration.

I also agree that the speaker - amplifier synergy is the most important element in making an amplifier buying decision. Auditioning in your own system is a must. For me it was made simple by the fact that my speaker's builder (Duke LeJeune - AudioKinesis - on AC) used an Atma-Sphere S30 amplifier in voicing my Jazz Modules.

OTLs like Atma-Sphere don't like low impedances and put out some heat (I know the OP preferred amps with less heat emission) but in my opinion they have a purity of tone that very accurately represents musical instruments and voices. If your speakers dip below 8 ohms you can use Speltz autoformers. Another startling effect is that on these speakers my 30W A-S amps play low frequencies better then the McIntosh MC-275 (75W push-pull) I used to own. The bass is tighter, stronger and more tunefull.

Finally, Roger from MR is also developing an OTL (including possibly a kit) so it would be worth wile talking to him. Atma-Sphere used to have an M-60 kit (and they may have it again) and on A-Gon there are used ones for $2000-3000.

[Ericus Rex]

Well stated indeed - thank you both for your thoughtful comments.

I'm less interested in reproducing a performance and more interested in reproducing the way an instrument actually sounds. I find that a good recording and decent equipment typically produces a much better result than the actual concert hall. The concert involves too many compromises, although these tend to be off-set by the emotion of the event. Many of those compromises can be eliminated in my living room, but if a harp sounds like a dulcimer, the emotion will be gone.

I agree that speakers are the most important link in the chain. I haven't quite achieved "true and faithful reproduction" yet, but I'm getting closer!

You bring up another variation of my point, Martyn.  I've heard people say things like 'I'm looking for the perfect violin sound from this setup.'  My questions to them are then:  which violin?  which performer?  using which of his/her bows?  recorded in what hall/studio? during which segment of his/her career? etc.  We have a long enough recorded history to know that all these factors play a huge role in the sound of any one particular instrument.  For instance, Yo Yo Ma plays on Jacqueline DuPre's Strad cello but he would never be mistaken for her in a blind listening test.  The same goes for Heifetz; many have since played his violin and bow but no one sounds like Heifetz.

I have a colleague in the violin biz who went shopping for a system one day.  He took a recording of an instrument he was very familiar with (he had sold it just a few years prior) and went through the store's systems until he found a setup that sounded like he remembered that violin sounding.  I didn't bring up these points after he told me this story but what I couldn't help but think was 'unless the CD you took in was of the very person you last heard play the violin, using the same bow, playing the same piece and in the same room you heard it then your effort was in vain.'  Not to mention the fragility of our aural memories and the time which had passed between live performance in his presence and the auditions at the store.  He just bought a system (all Linn and Avalon BTW...not too shabby!) that sounded like he thought a good violin should sound.  And that's exactly what he should have done.  Trying to find the perfect reproducer was wasted energy b/c in the end he picked a system that pleased his sensibilities, whether he knew it or not.  And he's still very happy with it.  So pick the amp that sounds the best to you, makes a recorded harp sound like what you think an actual harp should sound like and puts a smile on your face every time you fire it up.  That's my condensed point after a long, and maybe a bit rambling, rant-like post.

[Martyn]

Borism, thanks for this...it gives me another avenue to pursue. Sixteen tubes!


Ericus, I think you're way ahead of me. I just want a violin to sound like a violin...I'll worry about who's playing it later!

I mentioned the harp for two reasons: first, I've noticed on several occasions that some systems can make them sound thin and metallic - more obviously unrealistic than many other instruments - and second, just before Christmas I was at a concert in a small hall given by a group of players called Winter Harp, http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_11?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=winter%20harp&sprefix=winter+harp%2Caps%2C210. Afterwards I bought one of their CDs (which is well worth a listen). Notwithstanding poor acoustic memories, the concert was a useful data point for listening to the CD.

[Ericus Rex]

Ericus, I think you're way ahead of me. I just want a violin to sound like a violin...I'll worry about who's playing it later!

Good to hear.  You were worrying me with that "taste and truth" nonsense.

[avahifi]

Speaking about having a violin sound like a violin brings back a very interesting demo I did years ago now.

It was back in the days when the B&W DM6 speakers were the best I had.  A fellow came in for a demo.  We played lots of music for him and he seemed impressed.  Then he asked if he could play his own record.  I said sure.

The record started playing a solo violin closely miked.  The prospective client said, this is a recording of me playing my violin, and this is pretty good playback.  Then he asked if he could make one A-B comparison.  I said sure, what do you have in mind.  He said wait a minute I need to got out to my car.  He came back in with his violin case!!

The demo was pretty simple, him playing his violin right there in front of me and then listening to the record.  That is what I call a pretty tough system test.

He bought a system from me even though there was no way the system equaled his live sound.  He said, well this is as good as I have heard a system sound compared to live, its good enough.

Frank Van Alstine