[Kiefer74]

Waz,

I decided to go with the 10C's. The transient response, frequency response, imaging, phasing and overall sound is just better in my opinion. Though they did prove to be harder than my Maggies to set up! And admittedly I found that my 3.6's could sound much better by having them further into the room than my standard placement (I could be flamed for not getting their placement right in 3 years of living here, lol), but they completely dominated it when doing so to the extent that I just couldn't live with given that I had an alternative...The 10'C's are just the right physical size for my room.

The downside of course is that the sweet spot is so small, but it proved to be small with the new Maggie placement as well (opposed to the original placement which was big enough that I could have someone sitting right next to me and it still sounded pretty good). I also had the problem that the 3.6's always sounded like a set of dipolar speakers and a ribbon tweeter, separate in other words...almost like 2 different speakers combined to be one. I was never able to feel the speaker was truly integrated.

I could see going to the 3.7's or 20.7's one day (may be .8's by then!) and I'd most likely go the dual sub route like you and some others have. Plus, I still have my 1.6's so I haven't signed off on Maggies in any sort of way...then again, I have thought of replacing them as well, but not for quite some time...

I ended up deciding on going with the complete Sanders system. ie. Pre, amps (both Magetech's), xovers and DSP units, and speakers of course. I even decided to keep his cables which turned out to be a big surprise for me!

The best way of describing it is I feel like I'm in the studio with the musicians and when it's live I really feel like I'm there more often than I've ever encountered.

On a side note have you ever heard of MOG? it's like Pandora, but totally different with CD quality sound. This may be a game changer! By hooking up a Roku USB device to my EVS modded Oppo and using my iPhone or iPad as a controller it'll be like having a computer based system in my living room with any music I could possibly think of. If you haven't heard of it I highly recommend it! Only $10 a month for Primo service.

P.S. This response turned out to be longer than I thought so I'm going to start a new thread with it.

Best regards,
Jon

[Kiefer74]

I just recently discovered the planar circle here, noticed some of the same people from AA and thought I'd post. I've visited AC for years so I'm kinda surprised that I've never posted before...kinda like the AV forums I guess...haven't posted there either. 

[mr_bill]

I own 3.7s which I love, and are a lot better than the 3.6s and have heard the 10c's, which were mind blowing - never heard anything like that before. Head in a vise super small sweet spot but amazing.

[SteveFord]

Kiefer74,
Welcome to the Circle.
Post some pics if you can.

[Kiefer74]

Thanx Steve! I'll post some pic's the 1st week of January.

Regards,
Jon

[Kiefer74]

Bill,

You're right about the sweet spot. Fortunately >95% of my listening is done solo so it's not an issue. And yes the sound...I can't stop listening!

Regards,
Jon

[kevin360]

As I said on that other forum, I was very impressed with the 10C system. I found it intoxicating - from a certain vantage point. I'd love to have it as my single user system. I'm actually quite delighted with my single user system as it is now - and there's one similarity.

The BDP-1 doesn't support MOG (yet), but it does permit access to 'way better than CD quality' internet radio stations. I tried a large number of them a couple of nights ago. Not one of them even approached CD quality, or the quality of playing WAV files ripped from CDs. Without my projector, I can't take MOG for a test spin with the big rig, but I can do it with the bedroom system. I hope its idea of CD quality is better than what I've heard out of MP3 at any bitrate. Still, I found some very interesting stations. At the office, with my least detailed system, stuff like Pandora doesn't bother me, but with the big system I get tense - I want the sound I know it can deliver. 

[Kiefer74]

Single user system is a good way of putting it! 

As far as MOG goes I've only listened to it on earbuds at the gym and as background in my jam room, though I've heard really good things about it. I should be getting my unit back this Friday and I'll have all of next weekend to see what it can or cannot do and most importantly the sound quality. I could listen to it through my Apple TV, but I know that the sound would be compromised (too much jitter through the optical out). I'll post here and on AA next weekend.

[harri009]

We all hear things differently. I owned 3.6's which I sold and bought he 10c setup.  I sold the 10c's for the 3.7's as I felt the 10c's had a harshness Alonso metallic quality to the upper range which caused them to not sound realistic.  The head vise that you had to stay in was also very annoying to me. The 3.7's while I do not believe have quite as much detail or bass as the 10c's are much more musical and much more realistic to my ears.  It's always interesting how we all prefer different things. Congrats on finding your preference!!

[Kiefer74]

What preamp and source were you using with the 10C's? I think my 3.6's have slightly more 'air', but ultimately everything else goes to the Sanders for me. Glad you're enjoying your 3.6's...

[harri009]

What preamp and source were you using with the 10C's? I think my 3.6's have slightly more 'air', but ultimately everything else goes to the Sanders for me. Glad you're enjoying your 3.6's...

I believe at the time I was using an esoteric SACD player with Modwright pre and Sanders amps.  Oddly enough I spoke to the guy who bought my sanders and he sold them for a pair of magnepan 20.1's.  I did listen to the sanders at RMAF and heard the same "issues" as I did in my home.

[SteveFord]

No head in a vice issues with the big 20s, that's for sure.
You need a much bigger room that I have, though. 
Even I had to admit that trying to take out a second mortgage to enlarge the house for a pair of speakers was kind of crazy!

[bk12]

Thanks for sharing with the update on your journey. 

I have owned a number of planar variants over the years, and I really liked some aspects of one of Roger's earlier creations, the Innersound Isis.  These were incredible for single person listening, but the biggest issue aside from the purposeful beaming he creates in these was the fact that the woofer radiates in a traditional pattern-which creates an even worse situation for those elsewhere in the room as the bass/other balance get thrown way out of the sweet spot levels.  If I ever go back to a one-person listening situation, I am definitely going to put one of the R Sanders designs at the top of my list for evaluation-I like the simplification of room treatment with this concept. 

I really like a lot about Magenpans, but I have been hooked to ESL designs for the past decade.  I am not sure if I could go back to magnetic planar at this point (although I haven't heard the latest .7 variants yet).

[Kiefer74]

BK,

It is definitely a one person speaker...although with an additional DSP unit running to the crossover I've saved a preset just for laying on my couch and cuddling while watching movies with the sound being ok...I never thought I'd get a pair of ESLs and didn't even plan on taking these seriously when I was giving them an audition, but once they got setup correctly I was instantly hooked. I'm curious to see how small parties at my house (music is always playing, we take turns picking the song or album) goes. I may think of 3.7's with dual subs...then I'll get back in the sweet spot and my worries will quickly fade away (I hope!).

Regards,
Jon

[MGbert]

Single user system is a good way of putting it! 

Ditto mine... not because the Gunned MMGs are really that "beamy", but because I currently have my listening room set up like the inside of a Bose Radio, with 4 foot by 6 foot panels acting like sonic funnels in my 11 foot square space.  In order to sit down, I have to hug the side wall (actually vinyl record shelving) around to the back of the left speaker, then alongside the panel up against the left speaker down the middle to the listening seat.  Once there, my head should be centered pretty exactly between the two so-called FRTs.

And yes, I am a Planar Asylum inmate, but they let me out from time to time.  Or I escape, not sure which...   

But the sound is worth it! 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=119990.0

MGbert

[Kiefer74]

MGbert,

That's pretty out there for sure!  I was heavily reminded how much the room and those first reflection points play into speakers when hearing the 10C's for the 1st time (and still). My 3.6's could never really be properly set up in my room, but the 10C's can, though for single listening only...and with great speakers, proper setup and the room taken care of magic can happen. I had to re-read your post about the Behringer DEQ (up to the point where it started talking about PG) because I got mine about a week ago. I sent it to Roger to get a few mods, but mainly to get the 'ears' machined off (I'll post pics next weekend sometime). So after the preamp I go to the DEQ stay in digital through a balanced digital cable to a DXQ (Behringer's crossover) then to the amps. I'm still tweaking the adjustments, but am really happy with the sound so far and think I'd use the DEQ with any set of speakers now that I can see how well it works.

I get my highly modified EVS Oppo back tomorrow (Monday) and after break-in, will get to experiment with MOG vs. CD which I've been wanting to do for a while now and could leave me without having to buy any more cd's which would be great!

Regards,
Jon

[MGbert]

MGbert,

That's pretty out there for sure!  I was heavily reminded how much the room and those first reflection points play into speakers when hearing the 10C's for the 1st time (and still). My 3.6's could never really be properly set up in my room, but the 10C's can, though for single listening only...and with great speakers, proper setup and the room taken care of magic can happen. I had to re-read your post about the Behringer DEQ (up to the point where it started talking about PG) because I got mine about a week ago. I sent it to Roger to get a few mods, but mainly to get the 'ears' machined off (I'll post pics next weekend sometime). So after the preamp I go to the DEQ stay in digital through a balanced digital cable to a DXQ (Behringer's crossover) then to the amps. I'm still tweaking the adjustments, but am really happy with the sound so far and think I'd use the DEQ with any set of speakers now that I can see how well it works.

I get my highly modified EVS Oppo back tomorrow (Monday) and after break-in, will get to experiment with MOG vs. CD which I've been wanting to do for a while now and could leave me without having to buy any more cd's which would be great!

Regards,
Jon

Jon:

Glad to hear that Santa has been VERY good to you this year, and that you have positives about the DEQ2496!  Only downside with getting so many goodies so quickly is that it might be hard to say what improved what.  Although the DEQ definitely puts pretty good band aids on things...

Speaking of which... after you've played with your rig, would you ind sharing what you come up with for a variance from flat response once you voice your system to "sound good" with most recordings?  I put mine out there as a stand alone "house curve", and even though I love the clarity, it is a bit bright.  Don't get me wrong; the clarity is STUNNING, so the brightness is merely a small annoyance, not a deal breaker.  Haven't come up with a tweak that keeps the clarity and tames the brightness yet.  The folks at innerfidelity (headphone guys) seem to think that sonic nirvana is to be had with a headphone that is flat from 20 Hz - 2000 Hz, then tails down perhaps 5-8 dB between 2000 Hz to 10000 Hz, then is about 15 dB down from 10000 Hz to 20000 Hz.  I haven't liked that as a "house curve", but then more experimentation is in order.

So any feedback from you or other room EQ folks here would be VERY appreciated!

Also, could you remind me how big/layout of your room is?  The "Inmate Systems" link at AA seems to be dysfunctional, otherwise I would have looked it up there.

MGbert

[Kiefer74]

MGbert,

Yeah, I've been saving for quite a few years and finally took the plunge. I've pretty much replaced everything but the tv so I can really only compare the systems as a whole.

I've only changed the frequencies at 500hz and below by Roger Sanders advice (which once again has proved to be correct). I'll quote part of a response he gave me yesterday as it mainly applies to his speakers being so direct, but may apply to yours a bit with your setup and the brightness you hear...

"As for the DEQ, it is expected that you will see significant frequency response errors above 1 KHz.  This is due to delayed reflections from the room interacting with the direct sound being picked up by the microphone.
 
However, you will not hear this.  This is due to precedence effect.
 
In other words, your ears will hear only the sound coming directly from the speakers.  The sound that is reflected around the room will be so delayed and attenuated by the controlled dispersion characteristics of my speakers that your brain will recognize that these severely-delayed sounds are not part of the original sound and will ignore them.
 
But a microphone has no precedence effect.  It will hear both the direct sound and the delayed sounds and sum them together, thereby forming large errors in the frequency response.  But again, you do not hear like a microphone, so you should ignore these errors.
 
You can prove this if you wish by correcting the faults shown above 1 KHz on an experimental basis.  You will immediately recognize that the corrected sound is quite awful and that the sound is far more accurate when left alone. "

He may be very stubborn in his ways, but I like and agree with most of what he says about things. And keep this in mind when you see the two dips around 2-3khz and 10khz on my DEQ's pink noise.
Not sure why the link isn't working in AA...My living room dimensions are 12x20x8 in my new house of 3 years (they were 16.5x25x7.5 in my old condo with my 3.6's). I'll take pic's by this weekend of both my room and the DEQ. I also have changed the DXQ slightly from how Roger sends them out. I lower the midrange by 2db and the bass by 3db along with the settings from the DEQ to get the sound that is best to me, though I still have a lot of experimenting I wanna do!

Regards,
Jon

[kevin360]

Roger speaks the truth. There are many ways in which measurement equipment is incapable of predicting the actual listening experience, all of which are due to the activity of that three pound enigma in our skulls. We don't hear with our ears any more than we see with our eyes; we do so with our brains. The implication of that is we're far more sophisticated than the stuff we create - think about it. We also have to face the fact that we hear more than what our ears capture - lots of implications there. Let's just say that a hearing test isn't fully capable of predicting the actual listening experience either.

[Kiefer74]

Waz,

Reminds me of the book Musicophillia by Oliver Sacks. On a side note I found my copy of This is your brain on Music...lost it and never read it. Just got through the intro last week! If I remember right we had a discussion about this book back in '07 or '08? Anyways, good to finally be getting to it. Regarding listening tests...I've heard of audiophiles that came from WW11 that had their hearing badly damaged by bombs, guns etc...yet could hear the most subtle of differences in live recorded music or the slightest change in timbre from a great violin compared to a regular one playing live. For some reason those examples stick out in my mind.