[srb]

I like American made, smart Aleck owners, and especially the unreadability

upgradeability?

[JLM]

upgradeability?

Dang AC spell checker.  Thanks for the catch.  Yes upgradeability, not unreadability.   

[JLM]

I, too, ripped my CDs to a Mac Mini and was using a Behringer DEQ2496 as my DAC. The Behringer made music, but was not a good sounding DAC at all. I replaced it with a Parasound ZDAC that sounds wonderful and has far exceeded my expectations for a DAC of this price (i got a good deal to boot).

Yes, I'd read the same.  That's why I never even listened to my stock DEQ2496, but sent it immediately to Scott Endler for his mod:  http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4c5pt/id14.html

[Rocket]

Hi,

What is wrong with your current Dac?  You've already tried the EE dac and couldn't hear a difference.  I've been immersed in this  hobby a long long time and spent a small fortune.  One component change isn't going to make much of a difference especially if your music isn't high quality recordings.  I've just purchased the latest generation of the EE dac plus and replaced the opamps with Dexa's and I found it a revelation in my system.  I've been buying high quality jvc xrcd's for a while now and the recordings are absolutely stellar.

Oh course this is just my opinion though.  Best of luck with your decision.

cheers Rod

[JLM]

Hi,

What is wrong with your current Dac?  You've already tried the EE dac and couldn't hear a difference.  I've been immersed in this  hobby a long long time and spent a small fortune.  One component change isn't going to make much of a difference especially if your music isn't high quality recordings.  I've just purchased the latest generation of the EE dac plus and replaced the opamps with Dexa's and I found it a revelation in my system.  I've been buying high quality jvc xrcd's for a while now and the recordings are absolutely stellar.

Oh course this is just my opinion though.  Best of luck with your decision.

cheers Rod

Thanks Rod for your advice.  Nothing really wrong with the modded Behringer I guess, more or less just wondering what others thought and how far the SOTA had progressed.  If I'd already ripped my CDs I might of kept the original EE DAC (with volume control) and replace the pre-amp (don't recall what I had then) and the Behringer EQ with software (I've always liked the purist approach).  At that particular time the opamp replacements were just being explored and many worried about frying the circuits.  But I'm a 'speaker guy' anyway (and still think that most improvement can be found in better speakers/room) and my ears are nearly 60 years old, so I'm looking at the downside of the audio ride, and can't imagine at this point spending enough to replace my Redbook collection (besides this is a great time, cost wise, to buy CDs with the interest in MP3 and HD, especially for historic recordings).

And frankly I struggle to keep up with software, opamps, all things computer related.  Seems like most of the AC membership either works in IT or are younger.  It's only due to the inevitable demise of CDP's that I'm finally moved my Redbook onto iTunes with an iMac (a relatively simple, supported, inexpensive - needed a new computer anyway - solution).

[jarcher]

In the $100 - $1000 range I'm going to guess that the options are going to sound more similar than dissimilar, mainly because the advantages eventually have to do more with the post dac chip section (ie analog and power supply). At below $1000 there are usually a lot of compromises that need to be made. With that said the improvements in the overall sound quality of dacs in the sub $1k category over the last few years have been substantial. I would agree that spending much more that $1k is risky with digital technology still evolving rapidly.

I would recommend a parasound zdac if you want a somewhat warmer more analog sound, perhaps the new audioquest dragonfly if you want something a bit more on the dynamic and detailed end but still reasonably smooth (and want to save money on a USB cable) or what is similar but a bit more money being the options from Meridian. The Schiit Bifrost is likely a decent option with the upgrades boxes checked. I think all if these to some degree also can reproduce most hi Rez stuff as well though not DSD, but that's all gravy. There is a teac dac at around $800 which will do everything and to my ears sounds good with redbook, although someone else on one of these AC budget dac recommendation threads found it too dark and dull.

Re up-sampling / oversampling etc, some dacs do it by default (particularly oversampling) and don't give you a choice (like my Bel Canto 1.5), so I don't stress over it - though I do set my PureMusic player software to play tracks at native resolution so extra conversions are not unnecessarily being performed. 

As for a dac as digital remote controlable preamp, I would advise against. I've tried that on three occasions with my Bel Canto 1.5, a Matrix Mini, and a modified / upgraded squeezebox duet and generally found the sound to be too lean. There was also the issue of sometimes not achieving the high volume I wanted with certain low level recordings because your limited in gain vs an active preamp.

In sum I don't think that at under $1k your going to hear miracles vs the Behring, but it could still be worth it, and don't abandon the separate preamp.

[opnly bafld]

Tube and SS $1080
Solid Sate $499

http://monarchyaudio.com/index_HEALC.htm

[terry parr]

this question is coming from somebody who still buys cds to add to his still expanding collection.  i dwnloaded the latest version of i-tunes on my laptop in order to audition sound samples and hear the "recommendations" at the bottom of the page of what you're listening to at the moment.
(allmusic.com has this feature too, which i use).  this is a good way to discover new music and talented singers, players and songwriters. 

then, i'll skip over to cdbaby or amazon to see if anyone has a particular cd i'm interested in (used).   (these days, adding to your cd collection is fairly inexpensive. with so many people "ripping" and storing their music collection on a hard-drive now, and downloading directly from spotify or itunes (or whatever), this means a perfectly good cd can be had these days for not much more than the cost of shipping).

anyway, my question to everyone here is:  if the op of this thread is transferring his cd collection, which he says himself are redbook cds, then we're talking about 16-bit.  (doesn't 16-bit stay 16-bit, regardless of any oversampling or upsampling that may be added later, in the chain, during playback?)

so, unless he's wanting his music to be portable, (which is why he's making the transfer from a cd to a computer hard drive), can any gain realistically be had through an external dac vs what would be heard through a cdp with a fairly good dac, to begin with?

i have an "external sound card" which bypasses the soundcard on my laptop, which i wanted mainly to increase the volume while listening to the audio from my laptop through headphones.  and, although the advertising and marketing of the product touts this piece as "audiophile performance-usb simplicity", the difference in sound quality is dare i say, marginal.  and this piece is advertised as an external dac with a separate headphone amplifier circuit.  there is a slight difference (it is an improvement.  but not the improvement that the ad hype would lead you to believe.  for now, i'm sticking to the shiny discs for serious listening, and the laptop for sound samples and youtube music videos).     

i aplogize for the rambling prologue, but i don't get why someone would go through all this for a home audio rig.  (unless space is that tight, and you have that many cds).  don't most of us here on audio circle have a dedicated listening room, anyway, which can accomodate a fairly large cd collection?   
 

 

[Letitroll98]

Thanks again for the suggestions.     I will look into them.

My idea behind having volume and remote controls would be to possibly replace my pre-amp.  I did the same with my Eastern Electric mini and didn't notice any ill effects into my Channel Island Audio mono-blocks that are designed for a passive pre-amp.  Anyone else have experience running straight from DAC into power amps?

In my experience, limited as it has been, you will be better off using your preamp for volume control as opposed to the dac. This will allow you to consider much less expensive dacs which are still of good quality. I use a Micromega Mydac and am satisfied with it in my system. ( Mac Mini, usb to dac, Shindo Aurieges pre, Quicksilver Mono amps, Harbeth Compact 7 speakers ) There are many others but I have not heard them such as Schiit Bifrost which people seem to like.

My experience has been just the opposite.  The clarity, drive, and musicality are unmatched in my system using a Dac with a good volume control to drive the power amp directly.  I've been using the Audio GD products, an excellent selection of cheaper DACs, or you could step up to the PS Audio system at quite a bit higher price.  The Audio GDs are more in your stated price range and just get better as you go up in price, but their products with volume controls use a sophisticated I/V topology implementing Alps controls.  Eliminating the pre-amp has made all the difference, and I'm not alone in that experience.   

[srb]

i aplogize for the rambling prologue, but i don't get why someone would go through all this for a home audio rig.  (unless space is that tight, and you have that many cds).  don't most of us here on audio circle have a dedicated listening room, anyway, which can accomodate a fairly large cd collection?

The majority of people who have converted a CD collection to a computer based library, after experiencing the versatility and enjoyment of playlists and the ability to random shuffle play selected albums, a musical genre or the complete library, never return to spinning a single CD at a time.

Steve

[terry parr]

maybe my "spinning a single cd at a time" is a holdover from my days of buying an album and then listening to the entire thing the whole way through after just getting it.  i still do the same when i get a new cd in. 

i remember the enjoyment of finding gems "deep into the album" (good songs, where the song structure may be a bit different, chord changes may be a bit out of the ordinary, etc.).   stuff which you knew would never be "released".  but very good stuff, nonetheless. 

and another thing:  i'm a liner-note reader.  if that guitar player is really getting a good sound out of that tele (or whatever else they're playing), i want to know who it is.  or the piano player:  "man.  who's that on piano?"  this is how i found out about aaron goldberg.  he was on a joshua redman album i was listening to. i discovered goldberg (which i went on to get two of his albums) by reading the liner notes and the credits.

what do you guys do who download new music files?   download the notes as a separate pdf?     

[JLM]

terry,

16 bits refers to word length, which you're right is fixed.  Sampling rates 44, 48, 96, 172, 192, etc. can be changed.

I've made the leap from CDP to computer primarily due to the eventual loss of CDs (to theft/fire, not purchase) and to be able to network my library within the house.  It took on average about 5 minutes to rip a CD and was even able to rip a couple of damaged CDs that would no longer play in a CDP because the computer keeps trying to read the track.  Note that all CDP can reinterpret what is read (the 8X type of specification) by the ripping process allows re-reads and the computer has much more processing power to make the interpretation.  So I was able to get through roughly 250 CDs a week while working at the computer.  My rips average 350 MB per CD (with album cover) using Apple Lossless (FLAC is similar).

Note that many here (not me  ) have music libraries containing thousands of CDs.  A 2 TB external hard drive ($130) could hold over 5,000 CDs and fit in your hand.  It would take several storage shelves or cabinets to hold that many CDs at a much higher cost plus require a spare room to fit them in.  Plus a 2nd backup hard drive can be kept remotely (or use an cloud based service) to further insure against loss of your investment, which for those large libraries amounts to tens of thousands of dollars.  Another advantage is the cost of the gear.  I'm using an iMac for my desktop anyway, so the transport is free and you end up comparing the cost of a DAC versus a CDP, and in a quality vs. dollars contest the DAC should win every time.  And upgrading is cheaper with the computer.

[firedog]

maybe my "spinning a single cd at a time" is a holdover from my days of buying an album and then listening to the entire thing the whole way through after just getting it.  i still do the same when i get a new cd in. 

i remember the enjoyment of finding gems "deep into the album" (good songs, where the song structure may be a bit different, chord changes may be a bit out of the ordinary, etc.).   stuff which you knew would never be "released".  but very good stuff, nonetheless. 

and another thing:  i'm a liner-note reader.  if that guitar player is really getting a good sound out of that tele (or whatever else they're playing), i want to know who it is.  or the piano player:  "man.  who's that on piano?"  this is how i found out about aaron goldberg.  he was on a joshua redman album i was listening to. i discovered goldberg (which i went on to get two of his albums) by reading the liner notes and the credits.

what do you guys do who download new music files?   download the notes as a separate pdf?   

Many downloads come with pdf of the printed material included with the physical disc. Some playback software automatically connects you to the appropriate album on a site like allmusic.com so the info you need is only a click away. You can also copy and paste or write info in the file tags so it is always available to you during playback. Or just copy notes on the album from the net and add them to the folder with the album. You can then read them as you listen. Very easy and convenient with a smartphone or tablet as your playback controller (instead of a traditional "remote").

I'd say it is almost universal among those of us who have computerized our collections that we "listen more, and to more of " our music than we did before. The convenience over discs, and the ability to play anything in your collection with just a click or two, is more than just convenient, it adds to the pleasure of listening.

[terry parr]

thank-you, firedog  and JLM  for taking the time to post. 

i know my "contribution" (ha. ha.) to this thread is making me sound like a luddite, but i remember hearing a streaming audio demo a few years back (probably 4-5 years ago now), back when peachtree audio was showing off their NOVA piece of gear.  and the shop where i was hearing this also had iirc,  "airport express" connected as their streaming ("service", "protocol").  and some young guy (looked like probably mid-20's)  who was performing the demo was just raving about all the things you could "do".  and, the whole thing just struck me as a young tech-minded guy having fun with the "gee-whiz, ain't this something?"  aspect of it all (as he sits there highlighting different song titles on this "tablet thing" something about the size of a ipod tablet that he had on his lap).   

 while sitting there and hearing the music being streamed, i wasn't blown away by the sound-quality.   i remember it sounding good.  sounded very good. they probably made sure they had the best-sounding loudspeakers in the whole shop set-up but, i was still left with the impression that this was more about "tech" than it was about music.  and i've been a bit dismissive about streaming music ever since.

JLM and firedog has added to my understanding and expanded my understanding a bit.  i'm learning.

so, if i understand:  it IS possible to "up" the sampling rate on a music file (which has been ripped), to improve on the sound quality from the original cd? 

how is this possible?  how can you improve on the quality of the original, when the ripped file is a "copy" that we're talking about?         

[srb]

so, if i understand:  it IS possible to "up" the sampling rate on a music file (which has been ripped), to improve on the sound quality from the original cd? 

how is this possible?  how can you improve on the quality of the original, when the ripped file is a "copy" that we're talking about?

For the most part you can't, but upsampling can smooth out poorer recordings by adding additional interpolated data points as well as applying the anti-aliasing digital filters farther up in the audio band from the music data.

You'll get different opinions as to which is better, some like the effect, others perceive it as removing "musicality" and making it a bit more sterile.  I've tried it on a DAC that had defeatable upsampling as well as within a music player like JRiver Media Center.  In most cases I preferred no upsampling, but there were some poorer recordings and lower bitrate compressed MP3s which I perceived as improved with upsampling.

An analogy would be recording a real-time music performance with a MIDI recorder - you can edit it and quantize the timing of notes (moving them to the nearest subdivision of a beat) if they are a little bit off, but in doing so you remove the character and timing of the real performance.

With upsampling, filling in additional data points with interpolated data may smooth it out but you can also destroy the very subtle timbre and nuances that make each instrument and voice natural, organic and unique.

Obviously I can turn upsampling on or off within a software player, but if I had a DAC that upsampled, I would prefer that it had the option to defeat it with a switch.

Steve

[Quiet Earth]

Hi JLM,

Well, I also think you should just keep what you have, and be blissfully unaware of what is possible with redbook because honestly, your heart is not into it. Here's why I think so :

You say you are a speaker guy, and spending any real money on the source is money wasted. I respect where you are coming from but I think that this philosophy is a big mistake. I should know, it used to be my philosophy and I am so glad I got over it. How can you ever know what your amp and speakers are capable of until you give them the best sounding source you can possibly afford? Open your mind and your wallet. (Sorry, but it is true.)

You ripped all of your music to a computer because you think the CD player is going away forever.  Well maybe it is, but that is a terrible reason to be a computer audio listener. I think a relatively immature platform such as computer audio needs all of the enthusiasm it can get from the user. Otherwise, it will be mediocre at best. (It more or less is anyway, so it must take a lot of effort to get it to sound decent.)

You want to buy a new DAC but you don't want to go outside of the limited area that you have already lived in. All solid state, cheap and cheerful. If you keep doing the same thing you will not get much different results.

Wow, that was not very nice of me to say all of that, but I think you are a good guy and I wanted to give you my honest opinion. Keep that in mind,,, it is my honest opinion. Still friends? 

I think you should double your budget at the very least. While you are saving your money, go to some audio shows and dealers and listen to some different DACs,,, and then buy yourself a stellar redbook only DAC for your redbook collection.

[mcgsxr]

I noticed an affordable Emotiva DAC in the classifieds with volume control, would that piece do JLM?

As for source first vs speakers, I have been in both camps.  My current approach is to leave no piece obviously lacking, but not invest too heavily in any piece either.

For the record, I simply use a USB-SPDIF converter and feed the signal to my AVR.  Best possible sound?  Nah, but for the $, it is excellent and convenient.

[bk12]

I would like to add a +1 to the recommendation for the Schit Bifrost with the Uber Upgrade.  I absolutely love this DAC, and would suggest trying out the next DAC up in their line the Gungnir, which is still within your price range.  There are a few places that offer a 30 day trial with these, definately worth an audition with those terms.

[JLM]

i know my "contribution" (ha. ha.) to this thread is making me sound like a luddite, but i remember hearing a streaming audio demo a few years back (probably 4-5 years ago now), back when peachtree audio was showing off their NOVA piece of gear.  and the shop where i was hearing this also had iirc,  "airport express" connected as their streaming ("service", "protocol").  and some young guy (looked like probably mid-20's)  who was performing the demo was just raving about all the things you could "do".  and, the whole thing just struck me as a young tech-minded guy having fun with the "gee-whiz, ain't this something?"  aspect of it all (as he sits there highlighting different song titles on this "tablet thing" something about the size of a ipod tablet that he had on his lap).   

 while sitting there and hearing the music being streamed, i wasn't blown away by the sound-quality.   i remember it sounding good.  sounded very good. they probably made sure they had the best-sounding loudspeakers in the whole shop set-up but, i was still left with the impression that this was more about "tech" than it was about music.  and i've been a bit dismissive about streaming music ever since.
     

Various features get pushed now in audio than ever before thanks to all the options computers can add relatively cheaply.  Audio (stereo back when I started out) was fairly simple.  98% of all serious listeners did vinyl with a manual turntable (the rest used open reels), just make sure the tonearm/cartridge are properly aligned, and add pre/power amp to a pair of speakers.  No one worried about racks, cabling, room acoustics, power conditioners, or 500 other tweaks (just good support for the turntable).  Vintage for the most part would have been a laugh as the only vintage was crude tiny wattage monophonic systems that played 78 rpm records.  Now the specification sheet for a new Oppo DVD player is longer than instruction manuals used to be for a CD player and the list of features something than only a geek's mother could love.

Good that you weren't wowed by the features.  A good example of the popular mantra are tiny miracle boxes like Airport Express which uses a wireless versus wired signal, crappy connectors, and possibly its crummy DAC.  Home theaters in a box is another.  Convenience has always ruled over quality in the ears of the general public.  OTOH computers, due to their computing power and bit perfect hard drives are almost universally accepted as a sonic improvement over dedicated CD transports.  Adding a DAC to the computer removes its major weakness, the sound card (designed for cheap speakers and residing in the electrically noisy environment of the computer).  And serious audio software can offer sound quality improvements and dare I say convenience. 

[JLM]

Hi JLM,

Well, I also think you should just keep what you have, and be blissfully unaware of what is possible with redbook because honestly, your heart is not into it. Here's why I think so :

You say you are a speaker guy, and spending any real money on the source is money wasted. I respect where you are coming from but I think that this philosophy is a big mistake. I should know, it used to be my philosophy and I am so glad I got over it. How can you ever know what your amp and speakers are capable of until you give them the best sounding source you can possibly afford? Open your mind and your wallet. (Sorry, but it is true.)

You ripped all of your music to a computer because you think the CD player is going away forever.  Well maybe it is, but that is a terrible reason to be a computer audio listener. I think a relatively immature platform such as computer audio needs all of the enthusiasm it can get from the user. Otherwise, it will be mediocre at best. (It more or less is anyway, so it must take a lot of effort to get it to sound decent.)

You want to buy a new DAC but you don't want to go outside of the limited area that you have already lived in. All solid state, cheap and cheerful. If you keep doing the same thing you will not get much different results.

Wow, that was not very nice of me to say all of that, but I think you are a good guy and I wanted to give you my honest opinion. Keep that in mind,,, it is my honest opinion. Still friends? 

I think you should double your budget at the very least. While you are saving your money, go to some audio shows and dealers and listen to some different DACs,,, and then buy yourself a stellar redbook only DAC for your redbook collection.

Still friends of course, and you may be 100% right, except for the reason I've moved to a computer source.  It was done to secure my collection from theft/fire, access to streaming audio sources, and to allow sharing of my library throughout the house. 

I've tried a variety of nice DACs over the years (Ack Dac, Red Wine Audio modded SB3, and EE mini original with tube upgrade), but none of them made substantial improvements to me (compared to what a decent room and almost any speaker change would).  I know, GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) but maybe my sensitivities to various sonic attributes are different than most ("sins of commission" versus "sins of omission").  I can hear the difference between MP3 and Redbook, but MP3 isn't that hard for me to live with.  In fact, I just replaced audio leftovers in my casual listening living room system with a $100 Logitech UE smart radio that links to my ripped collection and 12,000 internet audio streams, and I'm pleased enough with it (for what it is and the intended purpose).  Yet when attending audio shows or visiting the few remaining B&M stores around I can dismiss most rooms at the door (it either sound close to being right or it doesn't - typically artificial, bloated/boomy bass, or distorted).  So I know that auditioning DACs away from my system would be pointless.

I've used computers for 39 years, but only as a tool, rarely as a toy.  The older I get the less patience I have for glitches, learning yet another version of whatever software, or the ubiquitous rebooting first solution to all computer problems.  (I'd never sign up to be an astronaut with that sort of tech support.)  So the computer solution will have to come to me.  I bailed out of my first foray into computer audio (the modded SB3) due to routine glitches that left me without music so returned to using CDPs until just a few weeks ago.  Not that I haven't DIY'd.  30+ years ago I assembled Hafler pre and power amps and built MLTL bass cabinets.

My ears are nearly 60 years old, they no longer hear 15,000 Hz (like they did just a few years ago and I wear hearing protection when mowing - note to all you younger guys).  As I age, smaller/simpler is more attractive in many things in my life (cars, houses, audio).  Decades ago I visited Bud Fried in Philly.  His sound room was a 15 x 15 x 30 foot plastered walls/ceiling with the front wall being almost totally plate glass windows.  The room was totally cluttered with his various speakers (old, current, prototypes) and audio magazines (the floor was probably wooden, but it barely mattered as you couldn't find it).  He used a cheap Thorens turntable (not that Thorens didn't build good ones, I had a nice one at the time) on a card table with a Onkyo receiver underneath (sitting on more piles of audio mags) and probably 50 feet of rip cord (typical "true" speaker guy).  And every speaker sounded wonderful.  He was a music lover and an eccentric, but seemed to know what he was doing.  Have I become a Bud lite?