[dminches]

To start this thread off here's a nice explanation I found in a Naim forum.


when using JPlay in DualPC setup, JPlay is installed on two PC's.
 
The ControlPC is used for playback and streams the audio signal to the AudioPC. Music is stored on the ControlPC or the ControlPC is attached to a NAS, as I have.
 
JPlay on the ControlPC is implemented as an ASIO-standard driver and is used from an ASIO-capable software audioplayer. I use JPlay's own JPlayMini, but you can use it as a kind of plugin from JRiver or foobar or other ASIO-playback capable software player, just point it to the JPlay ASIO-driver.
 
JPlay on the AudioPC runs as a system service. It's sole responsibility is to output the audio signal to your DAC, via your DAC's drivers, in very timing-controled manner. JPlay offers four types of playback engines for the AudioPC which use different (mixes of) strategies for obtaining this timing control. There are also several program and registry settings you can use to influence this service. The most extreme setting is Hibernate mode which switches of several internal OS processes and dedicates a processor core to the JPlay process And lowers priorities of other processes. All music is played from RAM-memory, but it uses different ways for configuring, accessing and using memory and/or methods for obtaining ultra low latency in the playback service. All engines have a very different sound signature, with different people preferring different engines ( the latest ultra low latency engine UltraStream has the most proponents though). Ask Josef on the forum for more technical details of JPlay.
 
So the playback chain is:
from a software viewpoint:
 
Software player --> JPlay ASIO-driver ------ethernet-----> JPlay Service --> DAC-driver-------S/PDIF OR USB---->DAC
 
Or hardware viewpoint:
ControlPC-----ethernet---->AudioPC----S/PDIF or USB----> DAC
 
 
Windows Server 2012 Core Edition is a server operating system that has less features and services running than a consumer OS like Windows 8. The Core Edition is a non-GUI OS (so only command line) which has been reduced to a bare minimum in functionality. It has been shown that the less services and additional processing is going on besides the actual audio processing the better the Sound Quality becomes. Therefore the Server and more so the Core Edition already sound better than the consumer OS like Windows 8.
 
The tweaking consists of turning off ever more services of the operating system that are not required for audio playback and changing the internal parameters and configuration of the Windows OS itself to improve its processing and timing aspects for audio playback.
The tweaking is being done by AudioPhil (also known as JohnDoe on another forum), who is very knowledgeable about the internals of the Windows Operating systems. Search for Windows Server 2012 Audiophile Core Edition on the JPlay forum and you'll be ale to see the tweaking scripts and get an idea what he is doing.
It is a very open and open-minded forum and just put your questions on the forum. Just don't expect everything to be scientifically explained because a lot has been found out by experimentation and see what turns out to improve sound quality, without always knowing why it is doing so. The developers are just using there ears to know what sounds better, not measuring equipment.

[ted_b]

Kep in mind this dual pc discussion is really about Jplay, not necessarily JRIver.  Jplay can be the sound engine for many Windows players, JRiver and Foobar being the two in majority.  The players, say JRiver, is used for browsing, library management, GUI, remotes, etc....and then it hands the actual sound playback to jplay at the other end.  Since you are choosing the Jplay ASIO driver, all DSD is set to "DSD" bitstream in Jriver (for example), not DoP.  The DoP actually takes place but it's with the Jplay interaction with your DAC driver (kernel streaming) at the output end.

[jtwrace]

Also worth noting that JRiver does not recommend using JPlay.

[ted_b]

Also worth noting that JRiver does not recommend using JPlay.

That needs a little fleshing out, Jason.  They also don't believe drivers sound different, and are, publicly, clearly of the bits-is-bits crowd, almost to a fault.  It is quite a reputation of theirs, and anytime they put a new sonic improvement in they say "of course, none of this should matter".  Yet now insist they could be used as an ASIO back end, just like Jplay...so those players are seeing the other shoe fall.

I don't expect any player that purports to be full-function to endorse 3rd party "replacements".  None the less, the differences in my system, and hundreds of others, are not subtle.  I love JRiver, and if I had to choose between their GUI (and remote)and a Jplay minimalist GUI all-or-nothing player I'd stay all-Jriver.  But I'm not forced into those decisions.

[wushuliu]

Also worth noting that JRiver does not recommend using JPlay.

To be more direct, JRiver called Jplay a 'hoax' and deletes any mention of it on their forum. Jplay posted a rebuttal, yadda yadda. The usual subjective vs. objective brouhaha.

As for optimized Windows OS one has to weight the hassle of all this tweaking vs. potential improvement. Cause you can find yourself so far down one path of changes that you can't find your way back to a point of reference. From personal experience the 'improvements' are not that great and can easily be nullified a day later by some *other* tweak somebody brings up and then you're changing everything around again and... Unless one just likes messing around I've found that the biggest improvements come from the easiest changes:

1. the audio software itself
2. Upgrade to Windows 8
3. Underclock memory and cpu (maybe, up to your ears)
4. Change Win32 Separation priority in Registry

Things I've found negligible: CPU - AMD and Intel both sound great. SSD/HDD - For audio playback I don't hear much difference between the two. OS should always be on SSD of course regardless. Just my .02.

It's important to pay attention to how people phrase their improvements. Read enough and you get the gist that there is not that huge a return given the hassle.

If you find yourself spending $500 on a sata cable then either you've found nirvana and just want to put a cherry on it or you've lost your way. I'm all for experimenting but to quote An American Werewolf in London: Stay on the road, keep clear of the moors, boys.

[dminches]

Thanks for the comments.

It would be helpful to those of us not using this method of playback/storage for you who are to give a brief (or detailed) description of your hardware.

Since I am still in the Logitech world I guess my synology NAS running LMS is the control PC and my Touch is the audiopc?  Is that analogy correct?

I am also curious if people who have gone from a single PC solution to the dual PC solution find the improvement in sound quality significant.  I assuming you do.

[jtwrace]

That needs a little fleshing out, Jason.  They also don't believe drivers sound different, and are, publicly, clearly of the bits-is-bits crowd, almost to a fault.  It is quite a reputation of theirs, and anytime they put a new sonic improvement in they say "of course, none of this should matter".  Yet now insist they could be used as an ASIO back end, just like Jplay...so those players are seeing the other shoe fall.

I don't expect any player that purports to be full-function to endorse 3rd party "replacements".  None the less, the differences in my system, and hundreds of others, are not subtle.  I love JRiver, and if I had to choose between their GUI (and remote)and a Jplay minimalist GUI all-or-nothing player I'd stay all-Jriver.  But I'm not forced into those decisions.

To be more direct, JRiver called Jplay a 'hoax' and deletes any mention of it on their forum. Jplay posted a rebuttal, yadda yadda. The usual subjective vs. objective brouhaha.

Yeah, I'm not here to debate whether it's better or not.  That's up to the people that try it.  I'm just pointing out to some others that might see this.  That's all.

JRiver makes no question about their feelings and deletion of any JPlay talk on their forum (which they're freely allowed to do).  All can see it here.

[TJHUB]

This is FAR too complicated a subject to simplify as some have in this thread.  The problem with PC audio is the seemingly limitless tweaking of virtually every component and software program.  It's too damn much!  Now add in the obsessed tweakers out there, and your head will be spinning.  IMO, it's 100% worth the hassle as the results can be amazing. 

It's important to understand that every setup will have different strengths and weaknesses, so no one tweak will yield the same results for everyone.  That said, Windows Server 2012 running in either core or minimal server mode is revolutionary with AudiophileOptimzer from Highend AudioPC.  It's also VERY easy to implement with the incredibly detailed guide.  Windows 8 at any level of tweaking is no good in comparison.  I've never read a single post where someone tried Server 2012 in any form, and switched back to Windows 8 because the sound quality was better. 

As far as dual-PC JPLAY setups, I know a few people that are back to single PC setups, and many others are happiest with dual-PC setups.  I think you have to figure out what you are willing to spend on experimenting to find the best solution for your setup. 

[wushuliu]

This is FAR too complicated a subject to simplify as some have in this thread.  The problem with PC audio is the seemingly limitless tweaking of virtually every component and software program.  It's too damn much!  Now add in the obsessed tweakers out there, and your head will be spinning.  IMO, it's 100% worth the hassle as the results can be amazing. 

It's important to understand that every setup will have different strengths and weaknesses, so no one tweak will yield the same results for everyone.  That said, Windows Server 2012 running in either core or minimal server mode is revolutionary with AudiophileOptimzer from Highend AudioPC.  It's also VERY easy to implement with the incredibly detailed guide.  Windows 8 at any level of tweaking is no good in comparison.  I've never read a single post where someone tried Server 2012 in any form, and switched back to Windows 8 because the sound quality was better. 

As far as dual-PC JPLAY setups, I know a few people that are back to single PC setups, and many others are happiest with dual-PC setups.  I think you have to figure out what you are willing to spend on experimenting to find the best solution for your setup.

Jplay
Server 2012
AudiophileOptimizer

Unless I'm mistaken none of those are free. Free to try for a time sure, but not to own. And there's no resale value. I don't disagree with possible improvements, but I disagree that it's easy and that you'll just get amazing results 'out the box'.

[shawbros3]

I guess it wouldn't hurt to try out Windows Server 2012 since there is a 6-month trial version.  And then decide if the $800+ license is worth the uptick in performance.  That sure seems like a lot of money to throw down on an operating system, wow.

[TJHUB]

Jplay
Server 2012
AudiophileOptimizer

Unless I'm mistaken none of those are free. Free to try for a time sure, but not to own. And there's no resale value. I don't disagree with possible improvements, but I disagree that it's easy and that you'll just get amazing results 'out the box'.

I'm not sure you read my post...

Who stated "free" or "resale"?  I stated that AudiophileOptimizer is easy, because it has a step-by-step guide.  What's easier than that?  If a person can't follow a detailed guide like that, PC audio is not for them.  And I said nothing about "out the box" results. 

[dminches]

Step by step guides are nice, but those of us who have worked with PCs for years know that at some point things don't go as planned and getting back on the path can be complicated.  That's what the on line community is for - to help those who are just getting started out.

I am reading through the guide now to see what this is all about.

[wushuliu]

I guess it wouldn't hurt to try out Windows Server 2012 since there is a 6-month trial version.  And then decide if the $800+ license is worth the uptick in performance.  That sure seems like a lot of money to throw down on an operating system, wow.

6 months, that's great didn't realize that but yeah unless you are up for uninstall/reinstalling every 6 mos. that's a big chunk a change. Then another $100 for the Optimizer and another $120(?) for Jplay...

@ TJhub: Cost is an important consideration for what is ultimately beta software. Easy to implement you said, but you're right that was specific to the Optimizer with which I am not familiar.

Baby steps is all I'm sayin'. Pay $100 for Audiophil and next thing you know tomorrow some other guy has something better. PC Audio is developing so fast I just think a little caution is needed. I paid $120 for Jplay a year ago and now I get better quality for free from MQN. $50 for Jriver before that which I never use. On and on. And again since it's software that money is gone.

[shawbros3]

TJHUB,

Was your Windows 8 CAPs server all decked out (linear/battery supplies for USB card, SSD, and MBoard)?  How much of an improvement did just the operating system change/tweaks make, are we talking night and day here?  I just want to get a feel for what you were running during your pre-Windows 2012 Server days.

Thanks.

[TJHUB]

6 months, that's great didn't realize that but yeah unless you are up for uninstall/reinstalling every 6 mos. that's a big chunk a change. Then another $100 for the Optimizer and another $120(?) for Jplay...

@ TJhub: Cost is an important consideration for what is ultimately beta software. Easy to implement you said, but you're right that was specific to the Optimizer with which I am not familiar.

Baby steps is all I'm sayin'. Pay $100 for Audiophil and next thing you know tomorrow some other guy has something better. PC Audio is developing so fast I just think a little caution is needed. I paid $120 for Jplay a year ago and now I get better quality for free from MQN. $50 for Jriver before that which I never use. On and on. And again since it's software that money is gone.

As an FYI, I can format my SSD, install WS2012 R2, all the drivers, AudiophileOptimizer, configure JRiver, and convert to minimal server mode in about 15 minutes.  AudiophileOptimizer is honestly worth every penny, and this is coming from someone that was very upset at the price when it was first announced.  I'm not sure what you think is "beta software", as everything works perfectly and is more stable than Windows 8 Pro ever was for me.   

PC audio is changing at an absolute crazy pace.  I don't try to keep up, but I've been doing this a while now, and I've experimented enough to find my sweet spot. 

You don't have to tell me money is a concern.  I recently spent over 3 months without a source due to finances. 

My friend purchased Windows Server 2012 Standard for $85.00.  I purchased my R2 version for $115.00 recently.  I don't have the $140.00+ to spend on JPLAY at the moment, and I'm not sure I ever will.  But you're 100% correct, it all really starts to add up.  You haven't even mentioned linear power supplies, cables, and LAN isolators...

I heard MQN at a friend's house.  It sounded amazing, but it has too high of a cost for me.  What cost?  Running it is as primitive as chiseling on a cave wall.  I'm not doing that.

[TJHUB]

TJHUB,

Was your Windows 8 CAPs server all decked out (linear/battery supplies for USB card, SSD, and MBoard)?  How much of an improvement did just the operating system change/tweaks make, are we talking night and day here?  I just want to get a feel for what you were running during your pre-Windows 2012 Server days.

Thanks.

I could write a book on everything I've done over the past two years.  I ran Windows 8 Pro on both a CAPS v2, and a CAPS v3 Lagoon.  I've manually tweaked Windows 8, ran Fidelizer in all of its forms, and lastly CAD's script.  I've tested a few linear power supplies on each of them, JPLAY, etc.  I found a what I thought was a decent level of sound quality, but I always say anything sounds good until you hear something better. 

This story is far too long to type out on a forum post, but I first tested WS2012 on my CAPS v3 Lagoon.  This was in the very early days of Phil's optimizer.  Even in stock GUI mode and no optimizer, WS2012 provides a more coherent presentation of the music, more definition, clarity, and separation.  But the real magic for me was the change in tone.  It was significantly better than anything I've heard before.  A night and day improvement?  How do you ask an audiophile that question?  For me, yes.

Today I'd never be able to listen to WS2012 GUI mode even with Phil's latest optimizer.  Minimal sever mode is where I'm happy.  Once you hear that, there is just no going back to anything else. 

As of today, I run single PC.  I run an intel server motherboard with a XEON low TDP processor, 4GB of low latency RAM, and a Paul Pang v2 USB output card.  For power, I currently run a wide input picoPSU with a FSP SMPS (19V, 6A), and a battery powering my OS SSD.  For software, I run WS2012 R2, AudiophileOptimizer, and J.River 19.  I can't decide whether or not JPLAY is an improvement to the sound or not with this setup, but on my CAPS v3 Lagoon running WS2012 and Phil's early optimizer, JPLAY was a must for me.  I can't explain this.

[shawbros3]

I could write a book on everything I've done over the past two years.  I ran Windows 8 Pro on both a CAPS v2, and a CAPS v3 Lagoon.  I've manually tweaked Windows 8, ran Fidelizer in all of its forms, and lastly CAD's script.  I've tested a few linear power supplies on each of them, JPLAY, etc.  I found a what I thought was a decent level of sound quality, but I always say anything sounds good until you hear something better. 

This story is far too long to type out on a forum post, but I first tested WS2012 on my CAPS v3 Lagoon.  This was in the very early days of Phil's optimizer.  Even in stock GUI mode and no optimizer, WS2012 provides a more coherent presentation of the music, more definition, clarity, and separation.  But the real magic for me was the change in tone.  It was significantly better than anything I've heard before.  A night and day improvement?  How do you ask an audiophile that question?  For me, yes.

Today I'd never be able to listen to WS2012 GUI mode even with Phil's latest optimizer.  Minimal sever mode is where I'm happy.  Once you hear that, there is just no going back to anything else. 

As of today, I run single PC.  I run an intel server motherboard with a XEON low TDP processor, 4GB of low latency RAM, and a Paul Pang v2 USB output card.  For power, I currently run a wide input picoPSU with a FSP SMPS (19V, 6A), and a battery powering my OS SSD.  For software, I run WS2012 R2, AudiophileOptimizer, and J.River 19.  I can't decide whether or not JPLAY is an improvement to the sound or not with this setup, but on my CAPS v3 Lagoon running WS2012 and Phil's early optimizer, JPLAY was a must for me.  I can't explain this.

Thanks for the in-depth dissection, it was very helpful.   With your current single PC/minimal server mode I'm assuming you can still use a remote device like an iPad to control jRiver's playback and remote access programs like Splashtop to make changes to the OS if required?

Thanks again.

[TJHUB]

Thanks for the in-depth dissection, it was very helpful.   With your current single PC/minimal server mode I'm assuming you can still use a remote device like an iPad to control jRiver's playback and remote access programs like Splashtop to make changes to the OS if required?

Thanks again.

I use an iPad with JRemote to control JRiver.  Because I'm in minimal server mode, I use Microsoft's new RDP app for iOS to administer the OS.  Splashtop is not compatible with minimal server mode. 

[*Scotty*]

Some people may prefer PlayPcmWin or uLilith to Mqn, they at least offer the ability to make a playlist or play back complete albums or multiple albums unlike Mqn. For some reason uLilith sounds better if the files it is playing back are located on a USB 3.0 flash-drive rather than on the hard drive. foobar and JRiver 19MC also sound better if they are playing back files located on a USB 3.0 flash drive, I have no idea why this matters but it does.
 JRiver and foobar exhibit lower resolution even when playing back from memory and a USB 3.0 flash drive then PlayPcmWin and uLilith x64core2 build.
 I only use JRiver to play back music while I am doing something else. If I really want to focus on an album or listen to a symphony then I use PlayPcmWin or uLilith.
I use a Toshiba P875 laptop i7 Win8 with 2.4G clock and 8G ram.
I would say JRiver needs a lot more work to reach the same quality of playback that can be had from programs written in C++.
Links to PlayPcmWin and uLilith
http://code.google.com/p/bitspersampleconv2/wiki/PlayPcmWinEn
Build index http://www.project9k.jp/download/uLilith/
uLilith x64core2  http://www.project9k.jp/download/uLilith/2013-10-31_x64Core2.7z
Scotty

[ted_b]

If this thread is going to be about which player is better, fine...but I will move it to discless circle now..  I asked to start this thread cuz folks wanted to know about Jplay and the dual pc setup routine.  I let it stay in this Circle cuz it was my subject in the DSD DACs thread.  Now it's much more a techy thread about players....which is great too.