Best sounding 6080 vacuum tube ?

Guy 13 · « **on:** 17 Oct 2013, 02:46 am »

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Just bought a Bottlehead Crack headphone amplifier
and I was wondering what is the best 6080 tube up-grade?
dbtubes.com have lots of NOS tubes, especially tubes from RCA, GE, etc...
Any one have experience with some of those ?
I want to improve the sound of the Crack, if that's possible
and have a spare in case of...
Any suggestions or recommendations on the 12AU7?

Guy 13

galyons · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 Oct 2013, 07:16 pm »

Input from users at the BH forum: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.0.html

If you spend some time on the site, you will find the the HD650's are likely the most favored match to the Crack!

I use AKG 240 Sextett and K140-4 600ohm headphones on my Crack with a Chatham or RCA JAN 6AS7G. I find them warmer and with more accurate timbre than the 6080. I have CEI & RCA 6080's, they are a bit more detailed, but with the vintage AKG's I prefer the 6AS7. The "Holy Grail" is the Tungsol 5998, but more highly regarded for lower impedance cans.

I also have AKG 702's. Although lower impedance, 62ohm, (my Crack is optimized for 600 ohm's) they sound good with the Crack. I could optimize the Crack for them by increasing the output capacitance. That is the joy of the Crack, you can easily customize it to your heart's content.

BTW, I replaced the 12AU7 on mine with a 7N7, ( the Loctal equivalent to a 6SN7 octal). The 12AU7 is not one of my favorite audio tubes. IMO, the 7N7/6SN7's are a more linear, much better sounding tubes in almost every aspect. That being said, the amp sounds very good with a quality old stock 12AU7. My favorites were from Mullard and blackplate RCA.

Cheers,
Geary

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Oct 2013, 08:52 pm »

Hello Guy 13,

I have used quite a few 12AU7 and 12AU7 equivalent tube types, so I will comment on that particular tube:

Right now, my very favorite 12AU7 is the CBS Backplate 5963. I acquired two full sleeves of them on eBay for 35 dollars total. I think the tube Gods were smiling down on me that day. Well, either that or it was my turn to finally get a good deal.

Other 12AU7 types that I enjoy very much are JAN G.E. 6189W, BRIMAR CV4003 (way overpriced), and G.E. Five Star ***** 5963. I am not a big fan of RFT 12AU7, as I find them way too bright for my tastes. I guess if your particular audio component needs some illumination, then RFT might be a good choice. I have many others to try, including the usual American standard 12AU7 types, and some Euro ECC82s, but it is a bit of a pain to remove all the little screws in the top cover of my DAC just to roll tubes. When I put in a set of 12AU7s I usually turn them on and enjoy them for 6 months to two years before I try another flavor. The tubes are left continuously powered up because that's just the way it is with my DAC. Not that it matters, just sayin' FWIW.

I have no affiliation with Brent Jesse, but he has a lot to say about 12AU7s and maybe he can help you sort some things out like tube number designation. Scroll down near the bottom of this page to read about equivalent 12AU7 types : http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm

Last but not least, there are some people who just don't like the 12AU7. If you don't like the 12AU7 don't blame it on the tube, blame it on the device using that tube. It is the overall design implementation and quality of that audio component that makes a 12AU7 sound good, not the other way around.

In my opinion and no hard feelings of course.

Guy 13 · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Oct 2013, 11:19 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 17 Oct 2013, 08:52 pm

Hello Guy 13,

I have used quite a few 12AU7 and 12AU7 equivalent tube types, so I will comment on that particular tube:

Right now, my very favorite 12AU7 is the CBS Backplate 5963. I acquired two full sleeves of them on eBay for 35 dollars total. I think the tube Gods were smiling down on me that day. Well, either that or it was my turn to finally get a good deal.

Other 12AU7 types that I enjoy very much are JAN G.E. 6189W, BRIMAR CV4003 (way overpriced), and G.E. Five Star ***** 5963. I am not a big fan of RFT 12AU7, as I find them way too bright for my tastes. I guess if your particular audio component needs some illumination, then RFT might be a good choice. I have many others to try, including the usual American standard 12AU7 types, and some Euro ECC82s, but it is a bit of a pain to remove all the little screws in the top cover of my DAC just to roll tubes. When I put in a set of 12AU7s I usually turn them on and enjoy them for 6 months to two years before I try another flavor. The tubes are left continuously powered up because that's just the way it is with my DAC. Not that it matters, just sayin' FWIW.

I have no affiliation with Brent Jesse, but he has a lot to say about 12AU7s and maybe he can help you sort some things out like tube number designation. Scroll down near the bottom of this page to read about equivalent 12AU7 types : http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm

Last but not least, there are some people who just don't like the 12AU7. If you don't like the 12AU7 don't blame it on the tube, blame it on the device using that tube. It is the overall design implementation and quality of that audio component that makes a 12AU7 sound good, not the other way around.

In my opinion and no hard feelings of course.

Hi Quiet Earth and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the info and the link.
Many options to choose from.

Guy 13

Guy 13 · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Oct 2013, 11:53 pm »

Quote from: galyons on 17 Oct 2013, 07:16 pm

Input from users at the BH forum: http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.0.html

If you spend some time on the site, you will find the the HD650's are likely the most favored match to the Crack!

I use AKG 240 Sextett and K140-4 600ohm headphones on my Crack with a Chatham or RCA JAN 6AS7G. I find them warmer and with more accurate timbre than the 6080. I have CEI & RCA 6080's, they are a bit more detailed, but with the vintage AKG's I prefer the 6AS7. The "Holy Grail" is the Tungsol 5998, but more highly regarded for lower impedance cans.

I also have AKG 702's. Although lower impedance, 62ohm, (my Crack is optimized for 600 ohm's) they sound good with the Crack. I could optimize the Crack for them by increasing the output capacitance. That is the joy of the Crack, you can easily customize it to your heart's content.

BTW, I replaced the 12AU7 on mine with a 7N7, ( the Loctal equivalent to a 6SN7 octal). The 12AU7 is not one of my favorite audio tubes. IMO, the 7N7/6SN7's are a more linear, much better sounding tubes in almost every aspect. That being said, the amp sounds very good with a quality old stock 12AU7. My favorites were from Mullard and blackplate RCA.

Cheers,
Geary

Hi Geary and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the info and link.
I order to save on transport, I am trying to buy all my tubes from Antique Electronics supply, however, DBtube as more choice when it comes to NOS.
I will have to do more surfing on the net to find the good one.
Thanks again.

Guy 13

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 Oct 2013, 04:04 am »

About the 6080 there is the Tung Sol 7236 NOS seems a good try.
The low ball(low priced) looks to be the Shuguang 6AS7.

hibuckhobby · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Oct 2013, 12:55 pm »

If you go on headfi.com, there is a thread about the Crack amplifier.
You will find many posts about tube rolling. Also...if you look on the
Bottlehead forum, there is a whole section on modifications and upgrades
that people have done to their amps. This includes tube rolling.
Let the fun begin!
Hibuck...

Guy 13 · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Oct 2013, 01:07 am »

Quote from: hibuckhobby on 19 Oct 2013, 12:55 pm

If you go on headfi.com, there is a thread about the Crack amplifier.
You will find many posts about tube rolling. Also...if you look on the
Bottlehead forum, there is a whole section on modifications and upgrades
that people have done to their amps. This includes tube rolling.
Let the fun begin!
Hibuck...

Hi hibuckhobby and all Audio Circle members.
Here it's the low or limited buckhobby guy.
I went surfing on Bottlehead forum and headfi.com
and did get some (Good) information,
however, tube preference is a matter of personal taste.
Each one as his own preference according to some personal criteria.
Minds you, there are some make - model of tubes that more people likes.
I soon post what I will buy for my Bellari VP-129, Decware SE84C+ and Crack.
Thanks.

Guy 13

Guy 13 · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 11:07 am »

Hi all Audio Circle members and tubes lovers...
After many hours of surfing on the Internet I am coming up with the following:

Here is the list of the tubes makes and models that I would like to buy from Antique Electronics Supply (USA) and/or DBtubes (Canada).
My order will be delivered to my relative in Seattle (Antique Electronics Supply) or my brother in law in Toronto (DB Tubes), who will give the small package to a relative or a friend that will bring it as personal belonging on the next trip to Vietnam.
Two Yellow brand ss plug in rectifiers, one to replace my 5ar4 on my
Decware – SE84C+)
and one to replace my 5U4 on my Niteshade Audio NS-10,
the reason is to get less heat from my amplifiers in a country
that is already super hot. They cost 15 USD each.
One 12ax7 Tung Sol at 15 USD for my Bellari VP-129
One 6922 JAN-Philips at 39 USD for my Decware SE-84C+
Two matched el84 Tung Sol at 15 USD each for my Decware SE-84C+
One of the following according to suggestions received from the Audio Circle members that will be purchased from DBtubes (Canada):
6080 RCA NOS at 17 USD
6080 Tung Sol NB at 59 USD
6080 GE NOS at 29 USD
6080 Chatham NOS at 49 USD
I would like to go with the Tung Sol or Chatham,
but a little expensive for someone like me on a mini budget,
however, I might break the piggy bank if they will make my combo Crack/HD650 sound behond my wildest dreams...

What do you think about my choice/preference?
Any suggestions ?

Guy 13

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 11:58 am »

Hi Guy,

Those Tubestore choices sound pricey to me...except the EL84. By comparison, TC tubes has Amperex 6DJ8s for only $19 each for good used! Or Sylvania JAN 6DJ8s starting at $14 each. The exact same Philips JAN 6922 starts at $24. With that saved money, I'd then go Old Stock for the 12AX7 instead of getting the Russian, current production Tung Sol.

As for the 12AX7, TC tubes has a Sylvania 7025 for $29, a GE 7025 for $32, a true USA Tung Sol for $29, Sylvania 12AX7 for $24, RCAs and Raytheons for $27.
While many of these 12AX7s are used, they are fully tested on an Amplitrex (which Tube Depot doesn't seem to have) so you know you'll get a good tube.

Since you're very budget-minded with this purchase, I'd probably go with the good-used Amperex 6DJ8 for $19 and the Raytheon 12AX7 for $27. Both tubes for $46 (your original two choices were $54 for both) + shipping. They should both sound better than your original choices and the Raytheon should last much longer than the Russian Tung Sol.

If you decide to splurge just a little, you can get the pair of Toshiba 6BQ5/EL84 matched pair for $64 from TC tubes. They should sound better and definitely last longer than any current production EL84.

I used to buy from Tube Depot quite a bit but they are now one of the more expensive suppliers out there and I no longer trust their testing/matching.

My 2 cents.

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 12:10 pm »

And by comparison, that Amperex at Tube Depot costs $70 and the Raytheon is $200!!!

Granted, those are new, unused but the budget-minded audiophile should always get good-used as long as they are properly tested. They'll sound the same. Why pay more?

Guy 13 · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 12:29 pm »

Hi Ericus Rex and all Audio Circle members.
Who's TC ?
I don't think I have mentioned in my last post that I wanted to buy from The Tube Store ?
I mentioned Antique Electronic Supply and DB tubes.
I took note of all your suggestion and I will be shopping at TC
when I know who they are.
Excuse my ignorance.
I am a little reluctant to buy used tube,
since you don't really know how many hours they been burning.
However, I am sure the construction is better than anything made in Russia today.
Waiting for your decoding of the TC ? ? ?

Guy 13

WireNut · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 12:49 pm »

http://tctubes.com/

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 12:51 pm »

Pardon me Tc tubes = www.tctubes.com

My critique of Tube Depot holds even more true for Antique Electronic Supply, at least as far as their testing practices. They seem to be sold out of nearly all regular old stock types. DB does use an Amplitrex so I would trust their readings.

When you have the true readings of a tube (given from an Amplitrex tester), the hours on the tube are then irrelevant. I would only say this about tubes that have been properly tested at their operating voltages. Nearly all tube testers made DO NOT test the tube at operating voltages so their readings are meaningless. This is one of the reasons I trust the Amplitrex over all other testers. Fear used tubes on ebay. Don't fear used tubes from TC or DB.

Guy 13 · « **Reply #14 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 01:01 pm »

Hi WireNut, Ericus Rex and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the link,
I went on their site and holy cow,
they have lots of tubes, almost too much.
I will re-write my wish list
and submit it again to you tube guru.

Guy 13

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #15 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 01:10 pm »

I would reconsider the yellow solid state rectifier plugs. Do they really reduce the heat output? The power and gain/driver tubes will not run any cooler, and the SS rectifier will also generate some heat,,, so I don't think it will make that much difference in total heat output. Has anyone tried one of these things?

Seems like a backwards move to me.

Guy 13 · « **Reply #16 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 01:18 pm »

Hi Quiet Earth and all Audio Circle members.
Since when solid state rectifiers produce almost as much heat as
a 5AR4 for example ? ? ?
To me all the solid state rectification diodes produce almost not heat at all.
I don't understand your statement,
please explain and/or give me some examples.

Guy 13

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #17 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 01:32 pm »

TC tubes does have a few 6080s too but it looks like DB has a much larger selection at comparable prices.

I think Quiet Earth is saying that your overall reduction in heat emission will only be slightly less with the Yellow Jackets since your amp will still contain several other heat-emitting tubes. Maybe only a 15-20% reduction in heat emission which you probably won't even notice. You also will be eliminating the soft start feature in your amps. At power-on, the cold tubes will immediately get hit will full plate voltage which reduces their life span. The tube rectifier prevents this as it doesn't send any plate voltage to the tubes until it's warmed up a bit. I also can't imagine it will sound as good as the real tube. But nice 5AR4s are pricey. I don't know why manufacturers still use them when there are many other good tube rectifiers still in production whose NOS counterparts are still affordable. 5U4 and 5Y3s come to mind as well as many 6 volt rectifiers like 6ca4, 6x4 etc.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #18 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 01:37 pm »

Guy,

I would not want to ruin the sound of my amp just to reduce the heat from one tube. That's all I meant to say. Maybe I am wrong. Buy one and tell us how much better or worse it is.

Guy 13 · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 01:47 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 21 Oct 2013, 01:37 pm

Guy,

I would not want to ruin the sound of my amp just to reduce the heat from one tube. That's all I meant to say. Maybe I am wrong. Buy one and tell us how much better or worse it is.

Hi Quiet Earth and all Audio Circle members.

I might not buy the Yellow brand ss plug in rectifier from
Antique Electronic Supply
because that's the only thing I will buy from them,
because I will buy all my other tubes from TC.
By the way, I wrote TC to see what they recommend and can supply,
then I will wait to see if more Audio Circle members will post some
comments and then I will give TC my order.
I look forward to read more recommendations and give my order a.s.a.p.

Guy 13