Another Front End Rumble at Big B's...prologue and results

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 31 Jul 2004, 01:58 am »

This is the prologue....

The reigning heavyweight champ Krell/Wadia will be taking on the lilliputian & overachieving Sony/MSB; spawned in labs in Japan and Taiwan, modded in Black Butte Ranch, OR and diligently trained in San Francisco, CA.

The tale of the tape (I took some guess-timates of Brian's configuration...Brian, correct as needed please)

'The Challenger'

MSB Power Base=   $399 new/    $200 used

MSB Gold Link III DAC=   $1500 new/    $750 used/    $800 mods (Empirical Audio)

Sony DVP-S7700 Transport=$1200 new/   $300 used/ $1000 mods(Empirical Audio)

MSB 192K outputs= $600

Rev Audio Lab Umbi=   $129 new

Rev Audio Lab Digi=   $200 new

TEK-LINE/TL500s=   $349 new/   $150 used

PC/ LAT AC-2 =   $194 new/   $120 used

TOTALS=   $3971 new/   $1898 used/   $2400 mods

My actual outlay - $4500.00
If bought new + mods - $6271
If bought (bottom dollar) used + mods = $4248

VS.

'The Champ'

Krell MD-10 Transport=   $9000 new/   $3000 used

Wadia 27ix DAC=   $8950 new/   $4500 used

Bolder ICE Digi=    $275 new

PC / Bolder Nitro Plus    $340 new

TOTALS=   $18,565 new/    $8115 used

See you all there who'll be there, and here at AC post fight......

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Jul 2004, 02:27 am »

Nice write-up.

For some reason I thought it was a much bigger price difference.

Have fun.

BTW, do you have your Exodus amp back? Can you post in a different thread your thoughts?

George

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 Jul 2004, 02:47 am »

George,

Nope - mine's not back yet...yours is? I'll post it once I have it and I am sure it is broken in....300 hours minimum I found with the JVC. I don't think it had but 150 before sending it back.

Yeah, when I did the exercise I realized the difference wasn't as dramatic as I once thought. The Sony/MSB is about 55% the cost of a similarly used Krell/Wadia set-up.

Should be fun tomorrow!

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Jul 2004, 04:56 am »

I must say I liked the "champ" better at our shootout tomorrow!!

(signed)
Dept of Foregone Conclusions

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Jul 2004, 05:20 am »

The Vegas odds are in now......the Champ is listed as a 5 to 1 favorite, but somewhat less as we approach the opening bell

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 Jul 2004, 06:39 pm »

CHALLENGER ON THE ROPES--OOH THAT MUST SMART---HE'S
DOWN!! CHAMP SCORES THIRD ROUND KNOCKOUT!!!

Film at 11.

zybar · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 12:50 am »

A third round knockout? Was the challanger really not up for the task?

I was really hoping for a good "fight".

George

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 01:02 am »

The challenger's owner/trainer will report at length.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 01:36 am »

'Tis true....the challenger was knocked out. It was Sugar Ray Leonard fighting Mulhammed Ali in both their primes......

The little guy tried it's heart out.

Details later, or tomorrow. I'm just burnt from tough week (audio today was the pick-me-up, actually).

Chime in anytime Brian, jgubman, Jim/RibbonSpeakers if you'd like to on what you heard today...

Hantra · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 02:13 am »

Wish I could bring my front-end. It'd be very enlightening.

B

jgubman · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 02:21 am »

Yeah, the Sony/MSB combo was outclassed by the Krell/Wadia combo.

Everyone will be happy to know that this time we listened to only a few tracks (4 I think) in a bunch of various configurations, including w/ and w/o a preamp (Jim's new sunfire tg IV).

To my ears, the KW combo had greater resolution, "blacker blacks" and a much fuller and firmer bottom end. The EA-modded Sony/MSB was definately a good performer (one I'd be happy to have in my rack), but in direct comparison to the KW, it was "uninvolving".

Also, just as transports (Krell -> sunfire, Sony -> sunfire, both using the same coax cable) the Krell won hands down. Did just about everything better than the Sony.

We didn't listen to this configuration much, but I *think* I preferred the Krell -> MSB combo a little better than the Sony -> MSB combo, even w/o the 192kHz upsampling that the Sony offered. We only listened to about 1/2 a track w/ the Krell feeding the MSB, but it struck me as a smoother presentation. Again, I'm not prepared to stand behind this conclusion as it was almost an afterthought (Brian and Jim were trying every possible different configuration).

Anyways, the listening session was a lot of fun, as usual. Brian pulled out some really great tracks, and the company was first rate.

zybar · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 03:24 am »

What did you think of the Sunfire as a preamp?

If I remember correctly from some posts, Jim was very high on its capabilities.

George

zybar · « **Reply #12 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 03:32 am »

Saw this on Audiogon:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtltran&1095454177

Looks like a very fair price.

I am in now way affiliated with the seller.

George

zybar · « **Reply #13 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 03:36 am »

Brian,

Just curious...which is playing a bigger role in the great sound, the dac or the transport?

George

zybar · « **Reply #14 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 03:37 am »

Quote from: Hantra

Wish I could bring my front-end. It'd be very enlightening.

B

B,

I know you went the computer route. Could you post the parts and associated costs?

Thanks,

George

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #15 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 03:54 am »

Ah, caught a break in time here without falling into a coma....

Yep, we all agreed the Wadia was more dynamic, had better separation of vocals and instruments, and gave more body to instruments. It wasn't that the Sony/MSB was bad at anything, it just trailed the Krell/Wadia in these important areas.

The Sony/MSB sounded best sans preamp...ditto for the Krell/Wadia. Fortuneately it was not too loud as it did not have a volume control, so I found this to be the most instructive. It trailed the Krell/Wadia in those above mentioned areas and in the handling of 80% of the frequency spectrum. I thought the top registers - the cymbols, high hats, triangles - were carried out with more authority and decisiveness...this allowed the Sony/MSB to overcome the shortfalls a bit and really swing. Tho the parts didn't equal the whole of the Krell/Wadia on tracks that had significant treble, I found my self swinging ot the Sony/MSB as much or more. The 1st cut, some killer stuff from South Africa, I actually preferred the Sony/MSB.

After this piece, we played some jamming guitar combo playing surf music and some very fine stage/theatre production that showed the non-treble realted shortcomings of the Sony/MSB up. With the Krell/Wadia you had real taste that the players were on the stage doing there thing; it was merely a nice performance that the Sony/MSB put on.

Important note re:jgubman's comments. My particular transport has an 192 upsampler with ethernet/RJ45 outs to a MSB Network input (via XLR). When we hooked up the Sony to the Wadia, it was thru the coax/digi outs. The coax networks were never worked on by Empirical Audio...it was stock output. We basically heard the stock Sony only improved in it's power supply area...no transmission line was worked on thru the coax outs.

So, it's entirely plausible that the Krell transport - MSB DAC was better than Sony transport - Wadia DAC because of this particular phenomena of my transport.

That was such a good time....I didn't get a chance to thank Brian for his hospitality as I loaded and left (after talking to Jim/RibbonSpeakers for a spell), but thanks; I had a blast.

It's too bad you couldn't tame those ribbons a bit.....

(teehee)

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #16 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 04:02 am »

I'm always interested in the music used at these gatherings. If you get a chance , can someone list the cd's used. Thanks !!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 04:03 am »

I wanted the previous post to stand on it's own and make a different one so no one thinks I'm trying to weasle my way outta' the comparo, but a few important things need to be addressed about today and the comparisons drawn:

I don't own an RM-40, but legend has it that it is a very tweaky speaker. Bass performance, in particular, involves thumbnail sized putty removal or addition to get the damping just right. Bass performance was particularly less involving/less accuarate next to the Krell/Wadia today. Some portion of that could have been ameliorated by tweeking that putty. We did not...you simply cannot do that in 2 hours of listening.

Besides, Brain has a business to run, that's his soundroom and it would take him a long time to get it just right for his setup again, no doubt. However, this imporant point needs to be made.

I don't know if there are other adjustments you need to make on the RM-40's to tune it for your gear, but none was done. It was set up, optimally, for the Krell/Wadia. This is not 'boo-hoo' from me, but it is very important to note this.

Some more thoughts a bit later or tomorrow....it was great damn fun today

jgubman · « **Reply #18 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 05:28 am »

Brian would have to list the tracks played.

I was responsible for the first track, which was the new Stereophile/Musical Fidelity release of Project K622.

The other 3 tracks were all Brian's.

ChairGuy, I wondered myself if the bass could be improved by some putty adjustment. There was really a pretty substantial difference in the bass with the two DACs.

PLMONROE · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Aug 2004, 05:08 pm »

It would seem plausable that the Krell/MSB combo would sound better than the Sony/Wadia because of the Sonys stock outputs in the later combination. More to my interest is how the Krell/MSB combination sounded as compared to the Krell/Wadia? I surmise that it would not sound as good but how close did it come (if one of you erudite gentlemen would care to comment, please)?