[PETE6737]

Hello All,
I posted this first in the newbie thread but got no replies. I am hoping for some advice from my Audiocircle peeps.
I have been exploring the idea of getting into vinyl for a couple of years. I read all 11 pages here and ther posts before writing this. I spend most of my time in the Salk and Bryston forums, I listen to a lot of SACDs and well mastered CDs, but I think vinyl can open me me to more music that I can't get on Hi rez formats. I bought some awesome Salk SoundScape8 speakers earlier this year and I think I want to buy a turntable. I want the TT and phonostage to be as good as my other components so I get the full effect of the "new to me"/old format. I have an Oppo BDP 105 Bluray for hi rez SACD music and Cambridge Audio 840C Cd player for CD duties. I put that through a Bryston SP 1.7 in pure Bypass in 2 Channel and Bryston 14BST amp in a well acoustically treated room.

The system sounds great, so now I need help picking out the gear that will sound the best in my room, with little tinkering. I read opinions in the forum generally saying that at some price point a TT will sound better that a great CD player, which I think I have here..so how much more do I have to spend to get the next level?  I was thinking of  VPI or Rega, Clearaudio...with the cost of a phono stage and a TT, could I get better sound than my digital components at 2, 3, or 4K?...I think my MAX would be 5K for everything. I figure with the money I have tied up in gear now, that I should be able to get a really nice analog set up with maybe some accessories....so Please, if you had to start frome scratch with the existing gear I have, what would you do? Thanks in advance, Pete

[jupiterboy]

Well, part of the cost of a TT is maintenance, so think about the cartridge and how often you will replace it. The cartridge is going to need to work well with the phono stage, so you might work from the cart back, based on how much you will use the system and how often you will replace the cart.

With your SS gear, you are going to need a particularly quiet phono pre, with the right setting for your cart which will need to play nice with whatever tone arm you are working with.

In your price range, I hesitate to think of a tube phono-pre, so I would start by opening the field a bit. Consider calling Sota and looking at their tables. Also consider Musical Surroundings Nova phono pre, if you don’t mind batteries. I think the people at Sota could probably help you in making a call on tone arm and cart, keeping it all within budget and creating a nice package with system synergy.

[BobM]

You are going to get tons of recommendations about what you should buy. I will only try to give you some general advice based on my experience.

(1) get the best phono stage you can afford. It is usually the weakest link in the analogue chain. SS will be less expensive than tubes and quieter too.
(2) the cartridge has to work with the phono stage, so if you get a low output moving coil you will need a phono stage with sufficient gain and loading options, or purchase a separate step up transformer. That is a more costly proposition usually.
(3) the stability of the motor and speed is the primary driver of the quality of a turntable. A speed controller assures this is taken care of, but that is also a more costly proposition.
(4) 4 ways to go on a turntable ... suspended or un-suspended. Then either high mass, or low mass and high rigidity. Personally I think it is probably easier to go un-suspended high mass. Unfortunately the high quality older turntables have gone premium in the used marketplace. Nothing is a bargain anymore.
(5) clean records make all the difference in the world. Don't forget the record cleaning equipment in your budget.
(6) the used marketplace is your friend. You can expect to save 50% over buying new.

Good luck and enjoy the hunt.

Now for a specific recommendations:
- VPI HW19's are one of the best bargains on the used market. Don't know why, they are a great table.
- there are some great hogh output moving coil cartridges, like the Dynavector 20XH, and some great moving magnet cartridges like the Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood.
- Disk Doctor record cleaning it is one of the best low cost cleaning methods and a worthwhile investment.
- You can make a DIY isolation base for any turntable with a maple butcher block cutting board sitting on top of about 6-10 squash balls. This will give you great isolation for low cost over the "audiophile" options.

[woodsyi]

5K max will probably put you toward used.  Here is one possibility.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-oracle-delphi-mk-iii-turntable-w-tonearm-tons-of-extras-2013-09-21-analog-60622

I have the MK5.  It's a nice table and a good looking one.  I don't think MK3 is much worse.  Most of the upgrade from 3 to 5 was cosmetic.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/phono-art-audio-vinyl-one-2013-10-02-preamplifiers-07457

I had this one before.  It's a very musical pre-amp that I had to spend 10 times to beat.  It's a great blend of tube richness and still with tons of detail.  If you need a manual,  I think I have it as I forgot to include it when I sold it.  Heck, this may even be the one I sold.

You still would have 1.2k left to upgrade the cart, buy a nice RCM and/or vinyl albums.

Just one possibility.

[Elizabeth]

I will give some totally different advice:
First, check out what vinyl resources are available in your own community.
(How many stores locally sell new/used vinyl)?
If none. forget buying a turntable. Period. Your choices of media will be limited to surfing the internet, and will be expensive.
Second.. You are assuming you will 'like' having a turntable, and are willing to go 'all in' to get one as good as SACD.. So for a TT, cart and phono pre you are in the $20,000/$30,000 range right off.., and that is alot to spend on a hope and a prayer.

If you buy used, you can get out almost what you put in. So for the op here I would say used is not only a good idea, it is REQUIRED.
(ony the cartridge should be new from a dealer)


IMO the main reason to buy a turntable is to play around with turntables and vinyl. Unless you have good local used/new vinyl sellers. THEN the main reason to get into vinyl is to be able to play around finding good used music as a hobby..

(Wandering from store to store scarfing up great finds while you elbow that old lady {me} away from your stash. LOL)
Thinking you can find better sound in vinyl is a dream for crazy people. yes you have to be a little crazy to like playing vinyl. Did I mention the invasion of BLACK MOLD you will certainly get from buying used vinyl? It is not a happy thing.
Then having pops, tick and wierd noises you may not be happy with from playing vinyl. that $2,000 record cleaning machine will also be in your future..

SO if you can LIVE with pops clicks, scraping noises and swhishing sounds in order to hear music from black mold filled records you thought looked good.. The near endless fooling around with setting UP your turntable.. then washing records, FINDING records, cleaning records ony to have the be noisey anyway even though you cleaned then ten times.. The problem of turntable isolation, which means an expensive stand to carry your turntable or suffer woofer pumping from Hell... And then decide you really do like the nice quiet background of SACD and throw you $30,000 of toys out into the dumpster out of anger over being led astray by the siren song some folks try to sell call "PLAYING LPS" (and REMEMBER: Millions of folks dumped LPs for CD at the very first chance they got.. When CD arrived. No..  Lp is NOT the wonderful warm and fuzzy feeling. It is a messy obnoxious way to get music)

Added: also jumping up every fifteen to twenty minutes to change sides.. Plus getting out and putting back you LPs.. brushing the dust off every time.. (you need a record brush too) The Lp storage.. needing to add a room to your house to STORE all these Lps. (I have 5,000 and keep them in my bedroom ... reminder that I am crazy)

Well I warned you. 

I have three turntable, three phono boxes, and about 5,000 Lps which took many years of endless toil to collect, PLUS the 7,000 lps i had bought and threw away sorting out the dross..

i am ready for my straight jacket now...

[neobop]

Hello All,
I listen to a lot of SACDs and well mastered CDs, but I think vinyl can open me me to more music that I can't get on Hi rez formats. I bought some awesome Salk SoundScape8 speakers earlier this year and I think I want to buy a turntable. I want the TT and phonostage to be as good as my other components so I get the full effect of the "new to me"/old format. I have an Oppo BDP 105 Bluray for hi rez SACD music and Cambridge Audio 840C Cd player for CD duties. I put that through a Bryston SP 1.7 in pure Bypass in 2 Channel and Bryston 14BST amp in a well acoustically treated room.

I will give some totally different advice:
First, check out what vinyl resources are available in your own community.
(How many stores locally sell new/used vinyl)?

IMO the main reason to buy a turntable is to play around with turntables and vinyl. Unless you have good local used/new vinyl sellers. THEN the main reason to get into vinyl is to be able to play around finding good used music as a hobby..

i am ready for my straight jacket now...

Pete,
I've sorted out the pertinent info here IMO.  If you're just looking to augment your collections with stuff unavailable or unacceptable on a digital format, you won't need thousands of records and all the associated insanity.  The nice thing about analog is generally better sound at low volume levels, that is if you have the necessary equipment.  Of greater concern is expectations.  "I want the TT and phonostage to be as good as my other components so I get the full effect of the "new to me"/old format."

We've been through this before and if you've read the past 11 pages of Vinyl Circle, then you must have an idea of the implications of your statement. 
For $5K you can get a decent set-up and I assume you're not including records with that number.  Do you know anyone with a "decent" record player?
Any idea what you're getting into and what to expect?  What does "as good as my other components" mean? 
neo   

[Gzerro]

It's nice to see a fellow Salk Owner on the vinyl forum - Wecome!

I won't pretend to know enough to give you concrete hardware advice, but as a fellow vinyl newbie will share some thoughts and experiences.

About 2 years ago I bought a 5.2 Salk speaker system originally focused on hybrid HT/Stereo, purchased a bunch of SACDs, setup a system to stream using my iPad for a controller. Everything sounded fantastic, until...   On one my my rare visits to a local hi-fi shop there was a used VPI Scout turntable sitting in the corner gathering dust. I had been considering a vinyl setup but for all of reasons Elizabeth posted above was trying to resist. I ended up purchasing the Scout on a whim and then it was down the rabbit hole...

Now 18 months later I play almost exclusively vinyl. I can't remember the last time I played an SACD. My streamer gets occasional use for music I can't get on vinyl or "background" music, but for the most part I just put on a record instead. I won't claim it sounds "better" than digital all of the time, but the process is much more involving - finding the records, cleaning records, tweaking turntable setup, reading the notes and admiring the artwork on the record jacket. Getting up to change the record keeps me more alert and involved.

Best of luck! I look forward to hearing what you end up with and how it works out for you.

Tom

[mick wolfe]

I think Elizabeth paints a pretty accurate picture of what vinyl playback involves. It's not a set and forget format. There is a much longer learning curve.  Many here grew up with vinyl.. as back in the day it was the only game in town. If you're willing to spend 4-5 thousand on a complete analog set-up, ( table, cart and phono stage ) you'll at least match or in many cases surpass your current digital equipment. This will be dependent on the quality of the vinyl itself. That brings up another expense or two...the cost of building a vinyl collection plus a good RCM, not to mention isolation shelves and the endless tweaks available. Enter with an open checkbook and LOTS of patience.

[Devil Doc]

Forget about it. Besides, I got enough competition for used records.

Doc

[PETE6737]

Wow! Thanks for all the advice!. It seems that I may need to reconsider vinyl after all. First, I must say, that I am 46 and only played records as a child on my parent's multichanger record player. Recently the only records I have heard have been at audio shows, and with all the resurgence of vinyl I thought it would be a good idea to add a turntable to my system that would allow me to get music that I could not find in a hi rez format on SACD ETC.

I may be naïve about vinyl, but there is a lot of talk about how wonderful sounding analog is compared to digital, so maybe I am missing something. I do not have any "analog friends" that I can listen to their systems, so I thought I could add a "decent" analog system into the picture, that I would love it in addition to SACD/CD. In my mind, if I got a $2500 turntable and spent 1500 on a phonostage, that I would have a piece of equipment that when I played a pristine new record of music that I had on CD, I would be in awe, in how much better it sounded compared to CD in my system. Maybe this is not the case. 

I know I have a lot to learn about the format and the mechanics of the infinite adjustments, tweaking, and the components that would play nice together... Since I have what I consider to be an awesome sounding system, I wanted an analog system that would be able to SOUND great as well, but I admit I am a bit overwhelmed with all this and I would hate to spend lots of money just to be Underwhelmed at the sound.   
Maybe I should rethink this

[Miney]

With speakers as wonderful / revealing as yours, the bar probably needs to be raised.  But does one really need to drop so much coin for just the hardware to get into the game?

Agree with buying used - if it does not work out you'll minimize $$$ loss.  You'll also need some money (plus lots of time and patience) for quality vinyl.

Definitely recommend against a manual cleaner.  Cleaning new or used LPs is essential to SQ, but a major PITA that eats into listening time.  Automate/expedite what you can.

My advice...  find a friend with a table to lend.  Spend some quality time together.  Can you get past the clicks, pops, warps, fragility, tweaking, manual effort, not to mention the hunt for pristine copies?  If so welcome to vinylfooldom.

[BobM]

$2500 on a table + arm
$1500 on a phono stage
$900 on a cartridge
$100 on a disk doctor cleaning system or $600 for a VPI cleaning machine

You are right on/around budget, especially if you buy the first 2 from a used source. This could easily surpass a good digital rig. But, as was said before, vinyl is a love-hate thing. It takes work to set this up and spin them properly, and you should find a decent source of used records nearby for our source of material.

Go for it!
 

[WireNut]

Elizabeth sounds frustrated

She's right tho, as far as I know there's only one good used record store in all of Cincinnati 

 

[woodsyi]

Liz, Et al.,

You are scaring Pete away from vinyl.  It's nice to warn people of the hazards that lie ahead but you are harping on the negatives only.
How about you all say something about the wonderfulness of the vinyl sound that makes it worth all the troubles to get back into this format?

If it's so fucking hard, why do you do it?

[woodsyi]

Pete,

It's not that hard.  I plunged in and learned as I went.  I love the sound.  I have a 15K DAC playing DSD and Hirez PCM.  I still prefer vinyl.

You are missing out.

[Berndt]

I don't post here much anymore. But this is a topic near and dear to me. Vinyl for me is about community. It took a group of local guys to help me through the setup, cartridge, phono stage, cleaning, etc initiation.
I love it now. Was it worth it? There were times I would have said no. But now that I am over the hump, my digital front end is for when I am feeling lazy. When I want to listen I cue up a record.
It is a steep learning curve.

[jazdoc]

Let me preface: I'm a record collector and I have a large investment in my vinyl front end; I love vinyl.

That said, I would think long and hard before purchasing a vinyl set up, especially if you are starting from scratch.  For a $5000 investment, you could buy a lifetime worth of digital music that is portable, takes up little space and will sound very good. 

You may think you are 'only' going to spend $5k on your rig...wishful thinking.  Next you need to buy records.  If you like vintage rock or jazz, it can be expensive, especially for quality recordings.  Do you have the time and patience to learn how to set up a vinyl rig?  Willing to learn who to buy software from by trial and error?

Oh by the way, six months after your purchase, you'll be lusting after more expensive turntables, arms, cartridges and phonostages on Audiogon.

The only thing going for vinyl is that it can sound better (provided you are willing to learn set up and have purchased quality gear). I'm not trying to discourage you; just be aware of what you are getting into before you pull the trigger.  I've seen more than one enthusiast rue the expense and give up on vinyl because they weren't prepared for the expense and time required to meet their aspirations.

[Miney]

If it's so fucking hard, why do you do it?

When done right it is absolutely enchanting.

[PETE6737]

The more I think about it, the more I am hesitant. It's always great to make an informed decision, which is why I am here absorbing all I can from my Audiocircle peeps...Jumping in from scratch maybe over my head at this point... Thank you all for the insight, the good the bad about vinyl, but I may stay digital for a while longer...Should I say, I have been cured of my "Turntable-itis"? Thanks All, Pete

[simoon]

and then decide you really do like the nice quiet background of SACD and throw you $30,000 of toys out into the dumpster

Please PM me next time you are inclined to do this, and the location of the dumpster.

I hate to see such nice people in such pain.