[TomS]

Pete,

It's not that hard.  I plunged in and learned as I went.  I love the sound.  I have a 15K DAC playing DSD and Hirez PCM.  I still prefer vinyl.

You are missing out.

I agree completely. I'm from the vinyl era myself, though unfortunately I don't have as much as I used to due to a home disaster a few years back. I jumped back in last year with a vintage Empire 208 with a Zu Denon 103R, and a DIY phono stage, less than $1000 total.

After a bit, I moved up to a relatively modest setup compared to some here: Trans-Fi Salvation TT, Trans-Fi Terminator T3Pro arm, and a Zu Denon 103R , Zesto Andros phono stage. I've never looked back even though I thought I had a relatively decent digital setup. Now, I thoroughly enjoy both the sound and the vinyl experience. I do have an extensive digital library but I usually just stream when I'm not spinning records.

Like some have said, one thing leads to another... I added a Soundsmith Hyperion II cartridge after the last RMAF, as well as a Nitty Gritty 2.5FI which was critical for used records. I never in my dreams thought I'd spend that much on a cart but Peter Ledermann's demo did me in. It was worth every penny to me.

Go for it, spend wisely, and you can always bail if for some reason it doesn't work out.

[Elizabeth]

I may be naïve about vinyl, but there is a lot of talk about how wonderful sounding analog is compared to digital, so maybe I am missing something. I do not have any "analog friends" that I can listen to their systems, so I thought I could add a "decent" analog system into the picture, that I would love it in addition to SACD/CD. In my mind, if I got a $2500 turntable and spent 1500 on a phonostage, that I would have a piece of equipment that when I played a pristine new record of music that I had on CD, I would be in awe, in how much better it sounded compared to CD in my system. Maybe this is not the case. 

I know I have a lot to learn about the format and the mechanics of the infinite adjustments, tweaking, and the components that would play nice together... Since I have what I consider to be an awesome sounding system, I wanted an analog system that would be able to SOUND great as well, but I admit I am a bit overwhelmed with all this and I would hate to spend lots of money just to be Underwhelmed at the sound.   
Maybe I should rethink this

Yes. First. IMO LP playback is pretty much the same as good Cd or SACD playback. It just sounds a little different. NOT better.. just different.
The folks who are CRAZY for LP claim it is the next Coming. NO, it is not. Now I LIKE to play LPs, and it can be fun.
Mostly I went back to collecting LPs because of the music available used locally, on LP. It is a hobby. So if the hobbyness of fiddling around with all this junk appeals to you.. Then Hell Yes! join the club.
If as your original statement was : You wanted something better sounding than your SACD.. Hell NO! forget it. You will be way way better off upgrading your system with the money on some other stuff and not a turntable, cartridge, phono preamp, stand, record cleaner etc ad infinitum.

And finally So you want to spend another many thousands so you can play a few records you managed to find new that you really want (as most records are out of print, and cost a boatload for still sealed new ones which went out of print years ago) as you wait for another few reissues.. (which half the vinyl population of folks will say sucks..) Or search endlessly like the 'Flying Dutchman" looking for those LPs you wish you had.. Then buy and discover the seller was a cheat and a liar and you got a moldy scratched up junk record in the mail after paying WAY too much for it, and then the seller starts screaming at you his Mother is sick and what can he do..." (I got that excuse more than once)

I am trying to save you the bother. The hassle.
But if you decide to join this boat, hop aboard. What an adventure you will have.. Or not. LOL

I really wanted to give a clearer negative side of vinyl. So many vinyl mavens are all glassy eyed about it. When in fact they hate the problems too. they just do not care about the negative as much as the fun side can be. And usually neglect to say anything about the bad stuff to interested folks.
So I feel it is my duty to give the bad side a spin. Yeah playing Lps can be fun. just not ALL fun...

[jtwrace]

I never in my dreams thought I'd spend that much on a cart but Peter Ledermann's demo did me in. It was worth every penny to me.

I did enjoy egging you on too.  Hope to do some more this year.   

[mal]

The more I think about it, the more I am hesitant.

Hesitancy is good, but don't let the naysayers steer you off it.

Your budget is fairly large. Just going by the prices on their website, at least one of my local dealers would look at your budget and send you off with a table, a cart, full setup, a record cleaning machine, a Manley phono pre, and something like a grand left to spend on records. I wouldn't worry too much about the details.

Honestly, nothing about vinyl is all that hard. My biggest piece of advice to beginners is to avoid trying to cue up specific tracks while they're drunk. My second piece of advice is to be OCD when it comes to cleaning the records. After that, everything else is cake.

[WireNut]

My biggest piece of advice to beginners is to avoid trying to cue up specific tracks while they're drunk.

I'll 2nd that. Been there done that, broke my dang cover 

[G E]

Vinyl is definitely worth checking out.  The key is getting a quality phono cartridge that is synergistic with a high quality phono preamp, and the cartridge needs to be matched well with the TT arm.  Read, read as much as you can, here and in Vinylengine for starters.

Are you experienced in building electronic kits and know how to be safe around high voltage (like 365 vdc)?  Check out Hagtech dot com for Jim Hagerman's designs.  I built his starter opamp based Bugle phono pre, and this past winter built the tube based Cornet2.  I have played very little digital since.  They turn up on the used markets once in a awhile for $500-$600.  There are other tube kits out there, too.

Records can be found lots of places like garage sales, thrift shops and even record stores.  If you get to a large metro area they will generally have several independent shops.  They also know what those early pressings are worth and are priced accordingly.  So an educated buyer, be ye.  The Steve Hoffman forums are a treasure trove of info on recorded music of all sorts and media(less) types.

Vinyl can become a serious hobby, but generally costs will be less than deep sea fishing, boating, classic car renovation, fooling around in the stock market, or getting married.

It's worth a shot.

[rooze]

Here's a possible alternative - about a year ago I was in a similar situation to you. I use the Cambridge 851C and a Pioneer Elite for SACD, and thought vinyl would take me into a different league. I should point out that I was a bit of a vinyl junky in a past life, so the format wasn't new to me. Having moved from the UK to the US, the vast majority of my vinyl collection from the 70's and 80's ended up in a dumpster in the UK, as it was too expensive to transport. Then, after a year or so living over here, my trusty Linn LP12 was sold off to help finance a new business.

So I lived without vinyl for over a decade, and about a year ago decided to give it another try, on pretty much the same basis as you, only with the benefit of some past experience with the format.

I started a thread here on the circle, first to establish whether other folks thought it possible to improve on my CD/SACD setup, with a rig costing somewhere in the $1500 - $2000 range, and then to solicit opinions and specific recommendations. I received a lot of good advice, from people like neo, and others.

I ended up with a fairly nice preamp with a built-in LOMC phono (Supratek) and a deck with a street value of quite a bit more than the $2000 I'd originally set out with (It's another long story, involving death and mayhem).

So 9 months later, I've decided, without any hesitation, that I made a mistake.

Here's the upshot and the possible alternative path. With CD/SACD, I was finding all the music I needed on Amazon, for a buck a piece plus shipping. With vinyl, I found myself paying upwards of $20, in some cases $30 or $40 (with shipping), for albums I could have found on CD for $5. And, some sounded OK, but most didn't. In fact I was buying sealed vinyl which sounded 'rough' from new. And, if you're like me and you buy a new recording that you really like, and play it over and over for the first few weeks, then you'll basically have to suffer the negative snowball effect, where the thing gathers more snaps and crackles each time you play it, regardless of how clean you keep everything.

Now on the positive side, I was very easily able to snag some old collections of vinyl on Craigslist, stuff I never would've found on CD. I picked up one collection of old jazz and dixieland recordings, 200 in total, and there were some gems in there, some sealed, some in dire condition. I paid $130 for the collection and I've seen others in that price range too.

But, I cringe whenever I spin one of the more 'worn' recordings using my $1700 cartridge!! So I find myself not playing the music I want to play, to protect my stylus so I can play music I'm no longer willing to purchase...duh!

What I should have done at the outset is buy an older deck with a MM and low-fuss factor, and just used it to play the obscure stuff that rolled-in through craigslist and yard sales. I think I could've accomplished that for $500 and change and I would've been much happier overall. Perhaps had I selected a good stable deck with the capacity to fit two arms, then eventually I could've added a second, more expensive arm/cart and used it to help preserve the occasional gem that came through from the dross.

I may still go down that path, I have other fish to fry first however!

So does a $7500 TT combo smoke a $2000 CD player? No, not really. As I think Elizabeth said, it sounds 'different'. Better on some recordings, yes. But on most stuff, just different. On the occasional recording, like Paul Simon's Graceland for example, it sounds very, very good. But after the 10th play, not quite so good...

It's just not worth it if you're starting from zero, without an existing collection, unless you have more money than you know what to do with. I know the vinyl folks will snub me over this, but it's just an opinion!

rooze

[Devil Doc]

On the other hand, I have at least 500 Lps that are over 40yrs old, have been half way around the word and survived more drunken Hospital Corps' and Marine Corps' birthday parties than you can shake a stick at and they sound just fine.

Doc

[WireNut]

FWIW this is what I spent to get back into vinyl,

$180, JVC QL-7 table used on Craigslist, came with an old AT 2002 cart.
$120, AT 120E cartridge new from Parts Express.
$125, Vista phono stage, used here on AC.
--------
$425 Total

[jupiterboy]

The thing about vinyl is that when I put on a record, my wife and pets come and snuggle in on the couch. When I put on a CD, nobody pays much attention.

[rooze]

FWIW this is what I spent to get back into vinyl,

$180, JVC QL-7 table used on Craigslist, came with an old AT 2002 cart.
$120, AT 120E cartridge new from Parts Express.
$125, Vista phono stage, used here on AC.
--------
$425 Total

That's the way I'd approach it if I had it to do over again...

Not knocking vinyl, just a matter of finding the right path into it....

[simoon]

And, if you're like me and you buy a new recording that you really like, and play it over and over for the first few weeks, then you'll basically have to suffer the negative snowball effect, where the thing gathers more snaps and crackles each time you play it, regardless of how clean you keep everything.

I have some very quiet records that I have played many times that sound no noisier than the day I unsealed them.

I just played the 180 gm reissue of Coltrane - A Love Supreme last night that I've played at least 25 times. Dead quiet.

But, I cringe whenever I spin one of the more 'worn' recordings using my $1700 cartridge!! So I find myself not playing the music I want to play, to protect my stylus so I can play music I'm no longer willing to purchase...duh!

I do not believe a worn record will cause any extra wear on a stylus.

How would a bit of noise look any different to your cartridge or stylus than other variation in the record groove? I have some records with a lot of various percussion instruments on them that are every bit as transient, dynamic, violent as any click or pop could be.

I believe that since you place this negative value judgement on record noise (rightly so), that it has to be negative to your cartridge also. I don't believe that is the case.

So does a $7500 TT combo smoke a $2000 CD player? No, not really. As I think Elizabeth said, it sounds 'different'. Better on some recordings, yes. But on most stuff, just different.

I agree.

On the occasional recording, like Paul Simon's Graceland for example, it sounds very, very good. But after the 10th play, not quite so good...

If you are noticing a degradation on a record in 10 plays, you may have a problem with your setup.

[rooze]

Hi Simoon,

It may well be a setup issue. Though, I have a lot of older recordings which have been played many, many times, and still sound good, yet some of the newer pressings I've bought seem to degrade quite quickly. I'm more of the opinion that it's the vinyl substrate, the quality of the material and the way it's pressed, which largely determines its longevity. I don't mind the hit and miss nature of it with the cheaper stuff, but when I spend $25 and get an 'iffy' pressing, which develops noticeable background noise after a few plays, then I feel less inclined to continue to pursue the more costly side of the format.

I think everyone finds a way forward that works for their given circumstances, I was just offering the OP an alternative that required less of an outlay and less of a commitment, which could still be very enjoyable.

[jupiterboy]

Hi Simoon,

It may well be a setup issue. Though, I have a lot of older recordings which have been played many, many times, and still sound good, yet some of the newer pressings I've bought seem to degrade quite quickly. I'm more of the opinion that it's the vinyl substrate, the quality of the material and the way it's pressed, which largely determines its longevity. I don't mind the hit and miss nature of it with the cheaper stuff, but when I spend $25 and get an 'iffy' pressing, which develops noticeable background noise after a few plays, then I feel less inclined to continue to pursue the more costly side of the format.

I think everyone finds a way forward that works for their given circumstances, I was just offering the OP an alternative that required less of an outlay and less of a commitment, which could still be very enjoyable.

I get frequent non-fill issues with new pressings. I don’t buy much new vinyl because of this.

[*Scotty*]

The problem is probably not setup related or all records played would show a rapid increase in surface noise, not just some. A more likely cause is the quality of the vinyl used. It used to be common to see as much as 30% recycled vinyl content in some commercial records, this can cause a number of stamper related problems and the record will have inherently more noise from the get go. It will also wear faster than a virgin vinyl pressing.
Scotty

[neobop]

Pete,
Didn't you say you wanted something for older or out of print stuff, unavailable in your digital formats?  Why then does it have to compete with your existing set-up for SQ?   Seems to me you're putting unrealistic expectations on a hands-on format you have no experience with.  If you want to get into vinyl there's a learning curve involved that includes set-up and record selection and care.  You've read the posts by people who tried it and never looked back and also those who gave up.

My suggestion is to try a more modest approach.  You'd be amazed at the quality potential of a "decent" record player with a MM cart.  Learn how to look at used records to get a pretty good idea of condition even if it's dirty.  Get Fremer's video if necessary and learn how to set up a record player.  There are phono stages you can get for $300 or less that will sound great.  Get your feet wet, give it a try.  You can recover most if not all of your money if you don't think this is for you, or if you want to upgrade.

I listen to mostly older acoustic music and I wouldn't want to be stuck hearing most of it on shitty early digital transfers.  When it comes to vintage stuff, vinyl kills digital even when available on CD.  Throw all those comparisons out the window.  It depends on what you listen to. 
neo

[PDR]

It will also change "how" you listen as well, at least it did for me.
As an old guy that had left vinyl behind in the 80's
and has just recently returned, I find I listen to whole albums
much more often than I did with digital.
Its just to easy to push a button and be off to the next
song or even artist with digital....more convenient, less involving.

[PETE6737]

Thanks for all your input. I really appreciate all the suggestions. I have decided to locate some local help and get some hands and ears on time with vinyl before I take the plunge. I have had a number of suggestions here and in PMs to look into a more beginner set up, possibly used, to see if it suits me. I will take a good hard look at whether I want to spend all the time , energy, and money on this format.

Yes, I am intrigued by all the hype in the magazines and online about analog compared to digital. I am concerned that taking this approach with a less expensive TT, that the TT will be the weak link in my system. I have what I consider to be a very revealing system, with Salk SS8 speakers, Bryston Prepro and heavy duty Bryston14B amp, along with a  the Cambridge Audio 840C CD and Oppo BDP 105 Bluray. I feel I may "choke" the system with a lower quality TT and associated gear, which is why I am trying to find something that the what provide me with the analog equivalent of my digital side ( which based on the responses here, I may be having pipe dreams without spending 20K)...I planned on using a TT to listen favorite music that I like, to replace the CD version that isn't good, or maybe a few yard sale finds, but I do not plan on collecting 1000s of records, just ones that appeal to me and SOUND GOOD. To me sound quality is most important. All the fuss and fun of playing a record is secondary to me to sound quality.

Again, before I spend a cent, I am going to search out some local assistance. Thanks to all the Audiocircle peeps!

[hakka26]

I admit, I was a bit awestruck at the amount the Pete is willing to invest in a vinyl experiment. But, it is also refreshing that he now will be seeking some local input and maybe hands on experience before taking a dip. I really enjoy vinyl and my stable includes: Thorens 125 MkII with improved SME 3009 arm, it was set up once by the owner and never used, came with original boxes, a mounted Shure V15 III, unused boxed Shure V15 III and an extra stylus; Micro Seiki DQ-3; Sony PS-X65, Denon DP52F, none of which cost more than $25 and one was free. While a little luck was involved, I have a number of others in the wings. Many came with some rather respected cartridges mounted.  I have been able to acquire  several recordings in four formats; vinyl, RtR, CD and cassette and found a personal difference. Personally, I prefer the vinyl with RtR a close second. CD isn't that far behind except for long, long sessions (though these are rare). Long ago, I took a headshell with a V15 III to another enthusiast's house and did a switch test on his TT. He had a very decent cartridge but the difference was extremely noticeable, especially the highs.  The difference between a V15 III and IV seems negligible as does a Sony or Nagaoka MC. But, I openly admit that my systems may not be able to exploit the virtues of an elite cartridge and/or TT. Good luck in the hunt but do take your time.

[jupiterboy]

OP has revealing speakers and amplification. He would probably do well looking for budget gear that is noted for being quiet if he is to arrive at some enjoyable synergy.