modded RAM and EA Carver1600 listening session

audiojerry · « **on:** 30 Jul 2004, 12:15 am »

We will be having a listening get together to compare mods of the Carver 1600 by Reference Audio Mods and Empirical Audio. We will be using my Audio Research VT200 as the reference.

Planned date is Saturday September 18th beginning anytime after 1pm and going until we decide to quit.

Attendees who plan on coming or expressed an interest are JCC (all the way from Houston), Earlmarc, Spectralman, and Eric.

We don't have any type of agenda at this time, but recommendations are solicited, so please post your ideas and comments here.

This should be enlightening, and fun!

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #1 on:** 30 Jul 2004, 09:47 am »

Glad to have you back Jerry !! Looking forward to reading the results of this comparison....have fun and take pictures....thanks !!

Eric · « **Reply #2 on:** 30 Jul 2004, 03:16 pm »

This should be great fun. I can hardly wait to meet you guys

spectralman · « **Reply #3 on:** 30 Jul 2004, 09:04 pm »

Jerry,

Let me know what you want me to bring as far as munchies go. As for the agenda, I don't know as I've never been to one of these before.

Bill

audiojerry · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Jul 2004, 01:15 am »

If the munchies are crunchy, then maybe no munchies

Actually, I haven't really had much time to think about this. My days are just too hectic right now. Fortunately, we've got over 6 weeks to get ready. I appreciate the offer to help with the food. I'll be sure to have drink and snacks available. Just let me know what you'd like.

Maybe we could break sometime between 5 and 7 and order out, or just get away for a little while and go some place casual for dinner to clear our heads and refresh our ears. Regardless of how good the gear and the music might be, listener fatigue will corrupt our judgement without a break.

For me personally, I'd like to do some serious evaluating, and not get off on too many tangents. From past shootouts, I've found that guys get a little too enthusiastic and try to listen to too many components. Too many variables make it hard to arrive at any kind of conclusions. I know we will be comparing at least 3 amps, and maybe a couple of preamps. As much as I like to try new things, I think we should try to restrict our serious evaluating to the amps first, and the pre's second. Depending on how much endurance we have, we can maybe try a few other things later in the evening.

I'm thinking initially we should try to give each amp at least 30 to 45 minutes of continuous listening before switching to the next amp, using the same music with each. Then, for the second round, we can play it by ear. For music, I'd like to make sure a good portion of it involves acoustic instruments recorded with minimal doctoring. I think we need to include small ensemble and vocals, slow and fast paced, full orchestral, trying to cover a wide dynamic range. It is also sometimes enlightening to use a recording that doesn't necessarily sound that great to see how each component handles it.

Maybe we can get each person to post what musical selections they plan on bringing, and we can decide amongst which ones we will use for our comparison. It would be ideal if we all were real familiar with one or more of the selections. That way we already know it sounds in our personal systems.

As for bringing gear along, please bring whatever you'd like, as long as we accomplish our main task first of comparing the Carvers.

Any thoughts or ideas?

And thanks for all the good thoughts from my AC pals. I wish I could have you all over at the same time - maybe down the road I'll have a weekend long bash. I always thought it would be cool to rent out a bunch of rooms somewhere and have a major shootout.

JCC · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 Jul 2004, 02:10 pm »

I'm starting to make my arrangements, and am certainly looking forward to the shootoff.

I agree with the approach suggested by Jerry. I will probably bring several recordings that have shown a lot of difference from amp to amp. I will post my selections. I will also bring along some of my own interconnects.

Anyway, it will be great fun.

earlmarc · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Aug 2004, 08:30 pm »

AudioJerry, Alex just completed my Phillips SACD 1000. It might be fun to use this digital front end as well as your own.

audiojerry · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Aug 2004, 06:39 am »

just want to caution everyone that we have 5 cats in the house, so if you have cat allergies....
They will be locked out of the listening room.

SuperMart · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Aug 2004, 08:19 am »

Yet another Cat 5 problem?

audioengr · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Aug 2004, 05:48 pm »

I would recommend some piano - "Gene Harris - the Concord Years" First disk. Track4 is very telling on the piano.

audiojerry · « **Reply #10 on:** 15 Aug 2004, 02:52 am »

Thanks for the recommendation. I've got three Gene Harris albums, but not that one. Jazz and classical piano comprise a sizable bulk of my music collection. I especially like solo jazz piano. The Maybeck series is marvelous. My wife also has a 7' foot concert grand, so I am very acute to how piano should sound. Unfortunately, nothing on my system compares to the real thing.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #11 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 05:19 am »

Jerry,

JCC · « **Reply #12 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 12:18 pm »

It should be great fun, and I am anxiously awaiting the results!

audiojerry · « **Reply #13 on:** 8 Sep 2004, 06:38 pm »

I've got the entire day, Saturday, Sept. 18th, blocked out for our get-together.
Can I get a head count of who is coming and when you plan on arriving?
JCC has confirmed his attendance along with his wife, Carver, and other gear.

Let me know if you need directions.

PS: we have 5 cats. They are never allowed into listening room, but they still may be a problem for someone with allergies.

spectralman · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Sep 2004, 12:57 am »

I will be attending. Let me know when the shindig is going to start. Also, I will need directions. Thanks.

Bill

audiojerry · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Sep 2004, 10:10 pm »

so far, I've cofirmed JCC, Eric, hibuckhobby, and Spectralman.
Earlmarc, do you still plan on attending?

JCC · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Sep 2004, 03:36 pm »

I can feel the hour approaching, with anticipation! Shootoff

The amps are drawn and ready to fire.

Jon L · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Sep 2004, 04:43 pm »

Make sure to let us know all the details ASAP!

Oh, please don't forget to unplug the other digital amp when listening to another. Some would say the digital "garbage" spewing into the electrical grid from the digital amp not being used (but plugged in) may adversely affect the sound quality of the system being played

audiojerry · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Sep 2004, 01:22 am »

For anyone interested, Earlmarc began a thread of the resuls of our get together in the Critics Circle: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=13174

rooze · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Oct 2004, 04:36 pm »

Hi,

I'm new to this forum, having tracked you all down via a link at audiogon!

I've read through a good deal of the information about the Carver ZR1600 and followed the shootout with interest.
Based on what I've read here and at audiogon, I bought 2 new ZR1600's to go with my Magnepan 3.6R's.
A bit of background: I use the Maggie’s in a large listening room (45' X 28') and one of my issues has been finding an amp with good power handling capability.
In the last year I've used amps from Belles, Perreaux (2 bi amp’d), McIntosh, Cary (pair V12 Monoblocks) and Krell. The Krell came closest to extracting the true potential of these speakers, but ultimately was a little underpowered and also ran too hot.

I've been considering Pass X600 mono’s, VTL 450 mono's and maybe bigger Krell's.
So when I saw the ZR1600 threads, and checked out the pricing, I decided to pickup 2 amps and try them in bridged Mono.

The dealer that sold me the amps commented in a pre-sale email that people were selling off their big Krell’s and buying the Carvers. He didn't say anything about 'modified' Carvers, so I assumed his opinion was that these amps are 'giant killers' in stock form.

Jumping forward, with about 30/40 hrs of break-in, I tried the amps in bridged mono and single stereo. There was no noticeable improvement in sound having two amps in mono config. One amp seems to power the Maggie's quite well. That in itself is quite an achievement. I've had some big SS amps that fell down with insufficient power handling capability.

The sound of the amp is where I get a little confused. For a $1000 amp, it is excellent. For an amp that supposedly competes with SOTA, price no object amps, it's a big let down.
Compared with the Krell for example (FPB200), the Krell is airier, has more top end extension, sparkle and resolution, is warmer and more full-bodied in the midrange and has better bass control and a little more extension. The Krell throws a bigger, deeper soundstage and places performers more realistically, with better image resolution.
The Carver seems to resolve some upper mid details slightly better than the Krell; I've heard a few spatial cues in less complex mixes that I hadn't heard before. The Carver falls apart on complex passages, and the various instruments/vocalists seem to morph together into a confused presentation. Truth of timbre on the Carver is pretty good on smaller less complex recordings, but it also degrades significantly on more complex passages.

My dilemma is this. How can people claim that these amps can compete with the best, in stock form?
There isn't enough in the positive column to make me want to risk $1600 on an upgrade, considering that the resale value is going to be less than half of the cost of the upgrade (perhaps).
The shootout with the ARC 200 seems to reinforce my concerns. Overall, the ARC seems to be more musically satisfying than the modified Carvers.
The ARC is a good quality amp, but isn't up there with a $16,000 pair of Pass Mono’s, or Krell 700CX for example, yet people are claiming that the modified Carver is better than the Pass and the Krell.
Is this potentially irresponsible hyperbole on behalf of new and excited Carver owners?....sure, it's a good amp for a $1000, and probably a good amp modified at $2600. But are you really saying that it can compete with a $16,000 Pass, even though it didn't blow away the ARC?
I think some effort to place these opinions onto context is required on behalf of the people making the comments.
Just my humble but honest opinion.

Rooze
PS - my system isn't ultra high end, but it is very resolving of subtle details. The link on audiogon is here http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vopin&1090602093&read&3&4&