[TheChairGuy]

AEA, I couldn't agree more with this statement....

The only way to even the playing field for the JVC, a victim of its price point, is at least replace the power cord and use it with a good isolation or balanced transformer.

I still have not replaced the cord, but that is a must, I think for the future.

Digital in was never annoying, just not as good as $3000 worth of modified MSB Gold Link III DAC and Power Base. I was able to listen to it, but it left me needing a fix of the bigger whallop (dynamics) thru DVD-Multi and the DAC.  Still, as mentioned, there was something pleasant about the digital input...along the lines of utter simplicity of the sound.

FYI - I tried both from my transport and thru my laptop (with a Turtle Beach Advantage Micro USB device that outputs a toslink) to the JVC.  The two digital in methods were inferior to analog ins, for me.  

[-Richard-]

DMason wrote: "My final comment and advice:..."

Sorry, DMason, but I enjoy your prose far too much to
even contemplate not reading your insights here.

And then: "An ounce of pretension is worth a pound of manure....
so trust your ears..."

Lovely that!

Warm regards -Richard-

[ooheadsoo]

Dmason: did you leave the connector on the power cord you added or did you snip it off and do some drastic measures?  Since there is no common ground, I suppose you just left that unconnected, right?  Btw, wow!  What a description of the sound.  I'm sure not getting anything like that

(Still hunting for fan solutions, which I think would benefit everyone involved.  I'm off to reconnect my fan for the time being.)

[srayle]

Finally have my F10 past the 300 hour mark, and it is so smooth and wonderful. My only desire is that the bass doesn't dig real deep, but I think its my speakers. They're custom made home-brew by an audiophile friend, and I don't think they deliver the real lows. Thought about a sub, but have read raves about the Gallo Reference III's and will have a chance to audition them next week with the JVC. I think the JVC can also drive the 2nd woofer voice coil that effectively becomes a built-in sub, but am not sure yet how to hook that up. Anybody else have any experience with these speakers? The reviewers fall about over them.

I really love this thread, I find myself disappointed when I log on and don't find a new post...there's an excitement created here by the frequent posters and a validation of another path in pursuit of musical enjoyment: that you can have really magnificent music playing on your home system without having spent insane amounts of money.

[brj]

Thought about a sub, but have read raves about the Gallo Reference III's and will have a chance to audition them next week with the JVC.

Be sure to report back your observations.  I've wondered about a similar setup with either the Panny or the JVC.  Will your audition with the JVC be in your own room, or at a dealer?

I think the JVC can also drive the 2nd woofer voice coil that effectively becomes a built-in sub, but am not sure yet how to hook that up.

There was an earlier thread on this.  The basic result was that the actual Gallo B.A.M. gives you a lot of flexibility, as it has a built in crossover.  Assuming the JVC does not have such a crossover, you can still attempt to drive the 2nd voice coil by putting a 50Hz filter on that wire.  Sorry I don't remember the thread off hand, but it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Anybody else have any experience with these speakers?

I heard them at a dealer, but wasn't as impressed as I'd hoped to be based on the review.  I qualify that statement a great deal, because the room was far from ideal, and I think the 50W amp driving the Ref III's wasn't nearly enough.  I was impressed enough, however, that I really want to hear them in a better room with a more powerful amp.

Let us know the outcome of your audition!

[TheChairGuy]

Finally have my F10 past the 300 hour mark, and it is so smooth and wonderful. My only desire is that the bass doesn't dig real deep, but I think its my speakers. They're custom made home-brew by an audiophile friend, and I don't think they deliver the real lows. Thought about a sub, but have read raves about the Gallo Reference III's and will have a chance to audition them next week with the JVC. I think the JVC can also drive the 2nd woofer voice coil that effectively becomes a built-in sub, but am not su ...

srayle,

Well, you probably could use one of the JVC's 6 mono amps (4 additional to the two front channels) to drive a subwoofer.  However, to directly/exclusively use the JVC would mean connecting your front end thru the digital ins, and as you know 'cause you've been reading, most of us have found that it is inferior to using the DVD-Multi (analog) input and selection.  This rig responds best to analog/rca inputs...unlike the Panny's.

The way around this (have your cake and eat it, too, technique ) in a way comes in the form of a good quality Y splitter and and another amp (AudioSource AMP3).  My passive sub has a built in crossover, but I understand the Gallo dual vice coil woofer does not. So, much like they demo'ed the Gallo's in 6moons, your run a mono IC from the Y splitter and into the dedicated sub/DVC amp.  However, you'll need to buy an rca low-pass filters from Harrison Labs (I think ACI here on AudioCircle also offers them).  They go right inot your rca inputs to your dedicated bass amp.

The AMP3 is about $250 used and pumps out a healthy 400 w mono or 150w stereo (and has dual volume controls, niiiice!). The Harrison Lab low pass filters can be found on Parts Express or direct from Harrison Labs and the Y splitter I use is Monster Cable's ($19.99 at Music Direct)

So although you can't use the JVC exclusively to drive the Gallos optimally (thru the DVD-Multi analog setting), for another $300 (funny how it's now more than the JVC purchase price, huh?   ) you can have the JVC drive your front channels and have some 'oomph' driving the Gallo woofs.

I use this set-up now (the AudioSource driving a NEAR BOOM-2 with 400w mono/bridged power) and it is splendid.  Of course, there are other ways to do it component-wise...but mine sounds quite decent to my ears and I didn't have to rob Mr. Piggy to do it .

Happy listening.... and welcome to the believers club  The little wonder ain't perfect, but it's damn, damn good, overall.

[geofstro]

When it comes to the digital input it seems to me Chairguy and I are hearing more or less the same thing;  but responding to it differently.

I would describe the sound I'm getting via digital coax as 'minimalist', since there doesn't seem to be as much going on as with DVD-Multi/Analog. Nevertheless, I can't easily identify anything missing, including dynamics and it does draw me into the music. I will admit though, I've not tried any music with really wide dynamic swings through it.

As far as inputs on the Euro Version are concerned, I attempted to take a pic, which wasn't easy given where the JVC is located; but I hope you get the idea.

I have DVD-Multi RCA's for L, R, Center, LR, RR. The rest of the Analogue connections are via Scart and one of them is marked DVD. This can also be used with the DVD-Multi Setting; but none of the other scart inputs can.

[srayle]

thanks for the hints...I should be demo'ing them at home, hopefully can pull it together to hear what they sound like with a 2nd amp driving the sub-range. I don't think I would buy speakers without hearing them in my system first. If they're near as good as they say (may be hard to fully assess as my room is not optimal), which is to say if they're much better than what I have, I think they're probably a great way for me to go. They look cool and yet weird, and are much smaller than one would think. The 6moons guy just about popped a nut, he liked these so much. The only criticism I've heard is that the soundstage does not go very high, but they sound so good no one seems to care...

I will report back. If these things are that good with the JVC, I'm done buying things for a long while, and am just going to enjoy the music!

[AphileEarlyAdopter]

When it comes to the digital input is seems to me Chairguy and me are hearing more or less the same thing;  but responding to it differently.

I would describe the sound I'm getting via digital coax as 'minimalist', ..

Same with me in the context of the Panasonic. I do like the 'minimalist' sound. I initially described it as "raw". After the addition of the Blue Circle Music Ring balanced power conditioner, I describe it as "live".
Yesterday, I ran the Chesky Demonstration disc on my XR50. The instruments were almost there in my room.
It would be good to try good/audiophile recordings on the digital input and see how it fares.
Geoff, you should get tweaks like Herbies Grungebuster Mat, Walker Vivid CD polish and Mapleshade Silclear conducting grease for the connections.  You will not believe the improvements that these tweaks can provide.

[geofstro]

Thanks for the tip on the tweaks. Dan and Chairguy have already waxed lyrical on the grease and I'm going to give it a try. Will look into the others as well.

I also need a tweak on my web-site as my image of the back of my Euro JVC isn't showing up here.

Any hints?

Thanks

geoff

[TheChairGuy]

Here we go...our first JVC Euro nudey....

[geofstro]

Thanks Chariguy for helping me out with the pic. What was the solution BTW?

Carlman said:

I continue to be amazed at how different a pair of speakers or an amp can sound. However, so far... that low power/single driver sound hasn't done it for me. So, my comments are based on liking expensive, dead, sterile... well, you know 'hi-fi'.

Obviously it is down to individual preferences and what you hear and prefer in a particular system.

There are also synergies which come into play. Most of the cheaper digital receivers/amps may not quite have the driving capability your preferred speakers require. I know some of the Bel Canto designs are higher power.

I believe they are all based on Tripath. The same chips used in the little Teac which I have. The JVC may also be Tripath derived.

BC obviously listen very carefully and tweak their amps to get a sound both they and their customers appreciate. A review at 6moons mentioned a significant improvement from just one capacitor change.

By contrast the Teac and probably the Pannys come 'as is' with a 'direct from the factory' sound. The passive components, etc. are obviously all low cost. Despite the lack of tailoring of the sound, to my ears and many others here, in the right system these amps are all 'music makers'. In other words they just seem to let the music through.

By contrast conventionally designed high-end amps are often heavily tailored to extract a particular sound. Perhaps this is the only way to get music out of those designs, especially SS designs; but it can lead to a contrived sound that may not result in music.

I'm not suggesting that you're attracted to a contrived or sterile, amusical sound. It seems these new digital amps (at least in my experience, those based on Tripath or Tripath derived designs) can be tweaked to improve the sound and still let the music through. I haven't heard any of the BC's; but I bet they're all 'music makers' as well.

To my ears both the little, untweaked, Teac and the JVC make real music. These amps differ greatly from each other though.

The Teac really brings out the leading edge of transients (something Mapleshade place a great deal of importance on and Horn loaded spkrs also do well). The notes also start and stop on the button, against a silent background.

The problem with the Teac is that it is icy cool sounding, which can be hard to take on some recordings.

The JVC on the other hand obviously has its sound tailored to suite certain tastes. This is hinted at in their literature where they talk about the problems of digital amps in general and the benefits of their hybrid feedback circuitry.

The sound of the JVC goes in the opposite direction of the Teac, in the sense that it is romantic and classical music in particular is gorgeously liquid. At the same time when I try to analyse its sound I don't actually hear any obvious deficiences. Despite sounding a little romantic, its sound doesn't feel contrived. It's still what I'd call a 'music maker'. Notes do stop and start precisely and I can hear the leading edge of transient attacks, just not as obviously as on the Teac. Perhaps the Teac is exagerating these qualities. I don't know; but I really enjoy both amps.

I haven't had either of these amps modded yet; but I intend to. Of course, there's no point in modding something unless it's really good to start with and I doubt if Wayne or anyone else would offer mods on these if they didn't consider it worthwhile. The mods are bound to add numerous refinements; but I doub't if they would change the essential character of either of these amps.

For me these amps along with single driver crossoverless spkrs can really make music. This is despite the fact that the amps as well as SET amps and horn loaded speakers all suffer from colorations. I don't believe it's the colorations that  I'm attracted to and any attemps to ameliorate those can only bring improvements. So hats off to companies such as Bel Canto if that's what they're doing.


geoff

[TheChairGuy]

Geoff,

You need to load the pics into the Gallery here at AC first, then into your post. It won't post the pic from your webspace...it'll only provide a highlighted link that way.

If you go to my gallery, you'll see your picture of the nudey Euro JVC - that's how I uploaded it to the topic.

Ciao - gone till September 25 on vacation.....laterz.    I expect at least another 5 pages of JVC posts by then  

[-Richard-]

Nicely thought out Geoff.

A very clear, sober and concise overview of what you are
experiencing with the Teac and JVC amps...

A nice rendering of not only your impressions, but the
context that informs them.

Warm regards -Richard-

[mcgsxr]

I have not heard the JVC, and no one seems to sell them in Ontario right now..., but I agree with geofstro, that the Teac can seem a little cold/sterile/detailed/forward whatever you call that sound.

I had the chance to do some final A/Bing against my Sugden today, as the new owner stopped in to pick it up.  The Teac was clearer, and cleaner in my books, but perhaps too revealing for some.

I aspire to pair up a tube preamp, and be done - now, to find an affordable tube preamp, remote controlled, tubes contained in the chassis (9 month old around), has 2 sets of outputs... Guess that is not the JVC...

Anyway, love this thread, and look forward to grabbing a JVC when someone decides to move one, or they start being sold in my neck of the woods - I think it will fit the bill perfectly for HT for my wife.

Mark in Canada

[geofstro]

Richard,

Thanks for the kind words.

Mark,

Yesterday I tried the Teac with Mapleshade Spkr cable and I learnt that much of that "Icy cool" sound I attributed to the amp was due to the amp in combination with the Nordost Blue Heaven I'd been using. The Nordost was VERY transparent with this amp and I was loathe to give it up; but the Mapleshade has proved to be an even better match.

I'm looking forward more than ever to reading your assessment of the modded Teac.

Right now I'm so happy with the Teac I'm reluctant to part with it to get it modded and I want to be sure I won't lose any of the quality I'm getting now.

The JVC/Pannies are bound to be more popular, since they are all in one solutions, whereas the Teac really needs a tube preamp to bring out its best in my view.

In the next few weeks I'll try it with my Fi-Y/Horn Shoppe Horn combo and let you know what I think.

g

[AphileEarlyAdopter]

Geoff,
The sound you describe of the JVC - is it through the analog or digital inputs ? So right now, which one do you prefer - JVC or TEAC ? I'd guess that the JVC may not sound so 'romantic' through the digital inputs. It is with the analog inputs the JVC engineers might have tweaked the feedback to give that particular sound.

My Int. Amp - AudioRefinement Complete supposedly sounds like tube amps.  one persong measured it to have a non-linear treble response. That is the gain of the amp at higher frequencies is not proportional when the signal value is higher. ie a low volume guitar sound is amplified properly, but a high volume/louder guitar/string would be not be amplified proportionally. This makes for a sweet sound without affecting the soundstage and losing details.  Also, a square wave response into this Int. Amp shows that the leading edges do not have a good response. I am suspecting the JVC incorporates one or both of these techniques when operated through the analog inputs.

THe following URL is the findings of this person re: the ARC
http://www.klausmobile.narod.ru/industrial/in_01_arcomplete_e.htm

To get good sound from the TEAC, if I were you, I'd get it modded. I am sure there will be much performance to be had in the 'nature/characteristic' of the sound, when the internal wires, binding posts are changed out. Also, a good power supply with good capacitors/diodes and a power cord, will make the sound so real.

[geofstro]

I'm afraid it's impossible for me to say at this point whether I prefer the JVC or the Teac.

For one thing, each of these amps is operating in very different systems.

The Teac is being used in combination with a Jadis JPL tube preamp driving a pair of ProAc Supertowers.

The JVC is drving a pair of Horn Shoppe Horns.

I believe the sound I'm getting in the system with the Teac is very much dependant on its being used in combination with the Jadis JPL. My ears and experience tell me this is a match made in heaven and I'm hoping the Teac will provide similar quality with a lower cost tube preamp such as my Fi-Y.

Although I feel the Teac is still a touch to the cool side of neutral, I want to clarify that no way would I  describe its sound in any way as being sterile. All the emotion of a performance is captured for me on this system. I believe its tonal accuracy is very good and most intruments are conveyed with correct timbre. The possible exceptions are bowed strings which is also where a bit of stridency does still creep in. I agree with you that it definitely makes sense to get this amp modded.

I don't find the JVC to be as timbrally accurate, partly due to its rolled off highs which contribute to a tubey, romantic sound. I feel the JVC has to be very carefully matched with source components; but when it is, the results are delicious. Personally I'd recommend that the sources used with the JVC are as neutral as possible, otherwise the sound could become overly warm, romantic and sound contrived. Vaue for money wise, the JVC must be very hard to beat. It doesn't need a tube preamp. It works its magic all by itself. 5 or 6.1 channels(depending on model) of magic, if you wish. Apart from my slight reservations over its timbral accuracy, I find it to be a very natural music maker.

Your theories concerning the analogue versus digital inputs seem to make sense; but what I'm hearing is the same essential character through the digital input as through the analogue, except that the digital is less rich and complex. What I've termed minimalist.

Hope it helps.

geoff

[ooheadsoo]

For what it's worth, I was listening to some classical the other night and I noticed that when I turned it down, the treble really came down in volume while the mids remained lush and full.  This could be what you guys are referring to.  I always thought that when I turned it up that the treble got a bit strident but I didn't know my system well enough to attribute it to the amp.  There may be something to this non linearity.

[AphileEarlyAdopter]

Geoff,
Thanks for the reply.
Does the TEAC have a volume control on it ?
I dont have a preamp, I might give it a try, because it is so cheap.