[sbcgroup1]

Would it be okay (sonically) if I added a pair of other brand speakers to my 5.1 VMPS system for the rear speakers in my HT (ie. channels 6 & 7)? I want to take advantage of the Dolby ProLogic IIx that my Sherwood will offer.

The speakers I am looking at are Axiom M22ti's (aluminum woofers) and the amps would probably be the two monoblock Outlaw Audio's. I'm trying to get something good enough at a relatively inexpensive price....

Thanks!

-Ed

[jqp]

I would say probably. Those 2 channels get very little except I think spacial and unusual effects. I am thinking that the outlaw monoblocks may even be overkill for those channels.

How do you like the outlaw  monoblocks btw? (I have a 950)

[sbcgroup1]

I don't have any outlaw monoblocks. I ordered Cinenova Grande 3's (3x600wpc @ 4ohms). I really wanted and needed something that would have massive headroom for the powerhungry (VMPS) ribbons.

I wanted to add the outlaws because it is quality amplification at good prices (299 ea). Also, if I ever upgraded to yet another pair of VMPS for my 6&7 channels then I would have quality amps to run the speakers. As far as having too much power....my opinion is basically that if you have high quality speakers and components, too much power doesn't exist. The more power, the better the headroom, the better the speaker, the better the sound. Also, mathematically, if you increase from the 300wpc range on up, you only gain ~1db per 100 watts added...it's just more headroom, which yields a more natural, open soundstage that's more sweet, less harsh, and more 3D like. Unless, of course, you trip your circuit breakers

Are you using your outlaws with vmps?

-Ed

[zybar]

Ed,

While I agree with this statement in general:

As far as having too much power....my opinion is basically that if you have high quality speakers and components, too much power doesn't exist. The more power, the better the headroom, the better the speaker, the better the sound. Also, mathematically, if you increase from the 300wpc range on up, you only gain ~1db per 100 watts added...it's just more headroom, which yields a more natural, open soundstage that's more sweet, less harsh, and more 3D like. Unless, of course, you trip your circuit breakers.

I think it is overkill for your rear surrounds.  There is limited info being sent to those speakers (in some cases there isn't any unless you tell the receiver or pre/pro to create it).  

It is your money of course, so spend it how you like.    

From my own experience, I am having no issues running ALL my surrounds from a Denon 3805.  In fact, I honestly can't tell any difference between the Denon and the very good Sherbourn 5/1500A amp that used to perform that task.

BTW, if you want to save a few bucks and still go for overkill...grab a used Adcom GFA 555 Mk II off Audiogon.  You can pick one up for $300-400 and sell it for the same amount if you want to upgrade or change it.  I doubt the Outlaw monos will be any better.

George

[jqp]

I don't have any outlaw monoblocks. I ordered Cinenova Grande 3's (3x600wpc @ 4ohms). I really wanted and needed something that would have massive headroom for the powerhungry (VMPS) ribbons.

I wanted to add the outlaws because it is quality amplification at good prices (299 ea). Also, if I ever upgraded to yet another pair of VMPS for my 6&7 channels then I would have quality amps to run the speakers. As far as having too much power....my opinion is basically that if you have high quality speakers and  ...

Are you using your outlaws with vmps?

Actually the Outlaw I have is the 950 Preamp/Processor. It currently goes to 5 Norh Marble 9.0s when I am in HT mode.
(My amps are MultiAmps in active mode for the stereo set (100 watts per driver), and Le Amps/MB-100s for the Center and Surrounds.)

I want to add two VMPS Larger Subs when I get my Active XO's (3-way)

[lkosova]

Ed,

It depends on how much of a purist you are. Are you running them all direct radiators or are your sides(side wall speakers 4 and 5) dipole???

For speakers 6 and 7(rear wall speakers) I think that they should be the same make since many people want to get into SACD or DVD-A and then realize it does not sound so good with a different make speaker.

I have a 7.2 system all VMPS with side Dipole Ribbons(side posts in the why) and Rear Dipole Ribbons but will have 626r for the rear on stands to experiment.

I have a new Cary pre/pro 8 and has all the latest dsp's and pllx music is actually very good with the RM-30's front three.

As far as amps I am using the Cary 5 and specially made 4(just for me) with 350 watts/channel (underrated), for all the channels.

Hope this helps,

Larry

[John Casler]

The speakers I am looking at are Axiom M22ti's (aluminum woofers) and the amps would probably be the two monoblock Outlaw Audio's. I'm trying to get something good enough at a relatively inexpensive price....

Hi Ed,

While the Axiom's might offer good value to price, they are "rear ported" which means that wall hanging "may" (even though their site says different) suffer from the port being restricted.

Larry brings up an interesting point and I am too lazy    to look it up.

If I am not mistaken, in a 5.1 source for multichannel music, I am under the impression that the "side surrounds" are activated and the "rear surrounds" are deactivated.  

This means that the Frontal Array and the sides surrounds need to be tonally matched for SACD/DVDA and other multichannel media.

I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that is correct.  If it were any other way, those who never run an amp on the "rear surrounds" could not use 5.1 source material.

This being the case, then your "adding" rears will only be used for "synthesized" 7.1 and the small amount of 6.1 software.

Will someone correct me if I am wrong?

[lkosova]

John ,

I am going with the 6.1 software that can be spread by the two rear speakers and there are dsp modes that will use the rear channels also.

But yes, the side channels will get the brunt of the work but some processor will "spread" that information over to the 6th and 7th speaker to envelope the sound and increase space.

The newer modes of SACD etc will use the 6th and 7th channel to help match the fronts etc.

Larry

[John Casler]

John ,

I am going with the 6.1 software that can be spread by the two rear speakers and there are dsp modes that will use the rear channels also.

But yes, the side channels will get the brunt of the work but some processor will "spread" that information over to the 6th and 7th speaker to envelope the sound and increase space.

The newer modes of SACD etc will use the 6th and 7th channel to help match the fronts etc.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the info.  I thought that all DVDA and SACD are using the fronts and sides for Multichannel Music and all "rear" is "processed".

Oh and by the way I sent a VMPS call your way today.  He said he lived in Chicago.

He'll call you.

[lkosova]

Thanks John,

My computer won't let me bring up the dolby site with pdf's that describes future modes etc.

I have heard some movies and music that use identical information for "all" the surround channels. Some processors let you tweak these channels also. But yes some will just have processed sound in the 6th and 7th speaker but this will change.

Larry

[ted_b]

Am I missing somethiong here?  For SACD and DVD-A in their current analog 5.1 format, they will only use 5 channels and a subwoofer output.  That means that either your rear surrounds or your sides need to be "designated" for this hi-rez output (the other 3 channels being your mains and center, of course).  Some pre/pros allow this designation to occur in the setup while others require you to pick one or the other physically.   Because it's not digital but pure analog, there is no synthesizing of surrounds, unless of course you want to send pure analog 5.1 hi-rez signals into some processor for addtl processing (but that would be bad for the signal; addtl d/a, a/d, etc.).  While some people prefer to "digitize" their hi-rez cuz then they get bass managment, it's a price to pay and is usually reducing hirez to the level of Dolby Dig or DTS;  I wouldn't do it.  For bass managment, use an Outlaw ICBM if your player doesn't give you some bass mgmt.

I have been 7.1 for 17 years.  I started with a Lexicon DC-1 (Cp-3 before that but it wasn't 7.1), and have currently a Lexicon MC-1 for digital 7.1 surround stuff, and have a clean analog Sony TA-P9000ES for analog unprocessed hi-rez.  (My two channel system is a different story all together).  In 7.1, my Logic 7 will actually steer matrixed or discrete nformation from the sides to the rears, and vice versa....but this is all in the digital domain, not for SACD or DVD-A.  When I play those formats I go through the P900Es and I split the surrounds to go to both the sides and rears, and have the system balanced that way.  Sides are too close for my hi-rez pleasure, and the rears are way too far behind me to use only them.  

So unless you are using a Meridian-like proprietary all-digital SACD/DVD-A system , the pure choices for analog hi-rez are sides, rears or combine them (and then calibrate  them down, of course).  Any Steering, synthesizing, etc is ipsofacto not hi-rez.   To my knowledge the SACD+ specs still aren't finished, but the only real difference there will be the (finally) blessing of a true standard digital inteface, and the possibilities of better bass management.  Of course, once this thing goes digital, any audio/video manufacturer can produce a pre/pro to manipulate the signal all they want.....which is a double-edged sword.  Let's just hope these formats last long enough to see/hear that...

As far as the original question, don't sell the rear speakers short.  What with discrete Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks, they are likely to receive full-bandwidth signals, not just effects and echoes.  Depending on how you set it up, the rears will get just as much as the sides if not more (i.e in 5.1 Logic 7, when an F18 flies ovehead, the sides get the effect full force, then the rears).   Back in the days of Dolby prologic the surrounds received rolled off signals, but not anymore.  And especially if you are going to use them in multichannel music make sure they are full-range speakers......even if you can't get them timbre-matched.
Ted_B

[lkosova]

As far as the original question, don't sell the rear speakers short. Whgat with discrete Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks, they are likely to receive full-bandwidth signals, not just effects and echoes. Depending on how you set it up, the rears will get just as much as the sides if not more (i.e in 5.1 Logic 7, when an F18 flies ovehead, the sides get the effect full force, then the rears).

Ted,

You said it much better then me!!!

Larry

[ted_b]

As far as the original question, don't sell the rear speakers short. Whgat with discrete Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks, they are likely to receive full-bandwidth signals, not just effects and echoes. Depending on how you set it up, the rears will get just as much as the sides if not more (i.e in 5.1 Logic 7, when an F18 flies ovehead, the sides get the effect full force, then the rears).

Ted,

You said it much better then me!!!

Larry

Thanks.   I'd just hate for someone, especially a fellow VMPS'er, to underestimate the newer surround formats and their impact.  If I could do it over again I'd have 7 identical speakers, full-range.   OUCH!  That means SEVEN RM/X's.....I don't think so....nevermind...

Ted_B

[lkosova]

Thanks.  I'd just hate for someone, especially a fellow VMPS'er, to underestimate the newer surround formats and their impact.

This is where I was trying to go but I am REAL tired today. Plus I have to get ready(mentally) to take my 7 year old daughter to a Hillary Duff concert tommarow night!!

Larry

[ted_b]

Thanks.  I'd just hate for someone, especially a fellow VMPS'er, to underestimate the newer surround formats and their impact.

This is where I was trying to go but I am REAL tired today. Plus I have to get ready(mentally) to take my 7 year old daughter to a Hillary Duff concert tommarow night!!

Larry

Wow   I have three boys so I never had to deal with that.  Speeding tickets, Rancid concerts, hair-too-long-for Catholic school-so-why-don't_I-just-go-to-the-public-one-ok? issues...but NEVER a Hillary Duff concert.  Reminds me of the Mastercard commerical where the dad is singing in the car with the daughter and friends on the way to the concert.......ya know, actually, you may like it....certainly she will.

[lkosova]

Here is the sick thing....I think she has some"good" songs. At least she has a slight edge to her music and more rocky.

I just don't want to think about 25,000 7-13 year old girls screaming all night long

At least at 16 I was at a Yes concert. Now at 43 I just saw them about 2 months ago here in Chicago. Rick Wakeman is still the man!!

While we are on a concert note. Just saw Prince last week and he had an explosive show. Worth the ticket if you can get it.

Larry

[ted_b]

Well, never saw a concert at 7 years old...but saw THE concert at age 11.....those four guys from Liverpool.   And saw The Monkees at age 12!!


Well, I guess we've hijacked the heck out of this thread!

Ted_B

[ctviggen]

For me, I've used non-tonally matched rear/side speakers for a while, and I honestly cannot tell the difference for movies.  I only have one DVD that has music (Blue Man Group), and I can't tell the difference there, either.  I guess I also have two Stevie Ray DVDs, but I also can't tell any difference there.

[ted_b]

My sides and rears are not tonally or timbre matched to the fronts (RM/X currently, SuperTower II A/r se's previously)) either, and have been that way for years.  However, now that I'm into much more multichannel music it is making a big impact.  My plan is to replace the bipoles I have on the sides and rears (Alon Centris surrounds) with either 626r's or lcr's (I have to hang them).  One, they are direct radiators and that makes a huge difference with music and discrete movie soundtracks, and second, with having BOTH sides and rears the foley and effects (rainstorms, etc.) still have that enveloping sound, if needed.  That might not be the case if you were to replace dipoles/bipoles with direct radiators for a 5.1 system (meaning only one set of surrounds).  I hope to win on both counts.  

Anyway, net/net, my belief is that as you dabble more in formats that send full-range info to the surrounds, and that expect to deliver a soundstage in the surrounds (hirez music), timbre and tonal matching becomes more and more evident.  I hate when that happens.......

Ted_B

[sbcgroup1]

Woah....guys...you all got WAY off subject!

I don't care about SACD, blueray, or all it's developments. When that stuff becomes more standardized and available for 7.1 discrete, then I'll review it at that point. And if I want to do SACD, then I've got the 5.1 system to do it anyways.

I have all vmps (5.1) and I'm only concerned with adding a stereo pair for ch6 &7 in the rear. When watching movies & tv, I want to take advantage of Dolby PLIIx, etc. I know the rears will be matrixed. That's okay. I'll create a little more spaciousness with some added delay times, etc.

So, given the aforementioned, I want speakers that will tonally integrate into my vmps speakers as much as possible, utilizing another brand (for price concerns). Looks like I will be picking up a Parasound 1500A (maybe 1000A will do) to power whatever is recommended....it's at an inexpensive price and decent enough. Adding yet another pair of LRC's etc as surrounds, or something equivalently priced and upgraded, to me, is simply not needed here.

Any recommendations besides Athenas?

-Ed