[greenklein]

After spending a couple of weeks reading and reading and reading...I figured I might as well ask some questions.  I would like to upgrade my front R/L and enjoy projects so DIY it is!  Here is my current set up... Onkyo TX-SR508 receiver, Polk CS-2 Center, Polk TSi-100's surrounds, mid '90's Phillips R and L, and a Bic F-12 Sub.  I would greatly appreciate some suggestions on Towers for the front. 

Qualifications
1. Not really into upgrading the receiver, so something that my receiver would be able to handle...
2. After I enjoy building the towers, I will probably want to do a center, so an established plan that has a center option as well would be great
3. Detailed plans (esp for the crossover!)  Total rookie in that respect.  Would be fun to put it together, but minimal figuring things out would help in this area.  I think a kit is the way to go for me.
4. I will build my own cabinets (great excuse for a new tool or two!)
5. 60% HT, 40% music...give or take
6. Living room...15' deep, 16' wide...Listener's left opens up into the kitchen (1/2 wall bar thing btwn LR and Kitchen)
7. Front speakers are currently about 12" from the wall, TV sits on a cabinet currently
8. Bang for the buck...

Since this is the GR forum, tell me what kit I should buy!  I've had my eye on the N3, a little spendy, but I'd go for it if that was the best for me.  What about the AV-3?  How about the X-CS Encore Mtm's (don't see it on the website...  Also, why should I go for a GR product instead of Mini-statements, the ER18, or  Zaph 5.5tt? 

I've really enjoyed reading about all of your builds, thanks for the education!
 
Sorry for the rambling and thanks for any help you might have for me! 

Todd

[Peter J]

I'm going to field the last part of your question. I've found that using the designs from a person/company you "resonate" with is no small part of getting what you want. Early on in my speaker building endeavors, I thought I wanted to do it all, design crossovers, become knowledgeable about driver parameters, yada,yada... What I discovered was that stuff really didn't trip my trigger all that much. The fun for me is in the cabinets, so I've largely left the speaker design to others.

Everyone's ears, tastes and philosophies are different. Nobody will tell you their stuff is shit, if fact they'll probably say it's wonderful, yet if you were to listen to 10 different MTM towers, the differences in sound would certainly be apparent. My point is that you probably need to build a few to get a feel for what you like, define what gets a speaker to that place and then you're on a clearer path. Failing that you have to trust someone else's ears, tastes and philosophies.

Bottom line to all that blather is GR Research has provided that for me...I like what Danny designs and I like his approach to the stuff I'm not so interested in or knowledgeable about. A holistic view which resonates with me, I suppose. Not a fanboy deal so much as a mutual respect for things done well.

Plus he pays me to toot his horn...




You know I'm kidding, right?

[Hank]

Welcome, Todd.  If you want a tower, I highly recommend the A/V-3.  I built a pair a few years agoe, veneered them in Rosewood - georgious look and sound.  My daughter and her finace wanted me to build a pair for their wedding present (I was out of Rosewood and it's price had skyrocketed, so I have them my pair) - they love 'em.  Take a look at Danny's cabinet drawings and if you think you can tackle the wood work, go for it.  I highly reccomend an accurately set up table saw for square cuts, AND a router with a dust port to connect a shop vac - MDF makes lots of nasty dust (wear a dust mask).  Have fun!

[rockdrummer]

Todd, I was a newbie a couple years ago.  No electronics background other than how to hook up speakers and amps.  I have learned a lot from this forum and it has been extremely resourceful when I ran into my own challenges in my builds.  Danny knows a significant portion of his customers are first time DIY's.  And he plans accordingly.  You won't have any issues getting questions answered by either Danny or the forum. 

Jump right in.

Ben

[Danny Richie]

Hey Todd,

Welcome to Audio Circle. You'll find a lot of guys around here that were once in your same shoes.

Actually your first qualification rules out most of the speakers that you listed below from other sources. Home theater receivers like yours use a single power supply for all channels driven. It may rate its capability to handle a single pair of four ohm speakers in two channel mode, but with all channels driven it likely rates all channels into an 8 ohm load. Those single power supplies just don't handle multiple low impedance loads. It over heats them quickly.

And I know a few of those designs pretty well because I have had to help a few guys out that had built them with various problems. The Mini Statements (among other problems) dips to 3 ohms. Your receiver will not like that at all. The same goes for the ER18. Those are actually pretty nice woofers, but they have a DCR of 5.9 ohms. So the two of them in parallel will dip the impedance to just below 3 ohms. That last one that you mentioned with its ringing metal cone woofers and iron core inductors is not even comparable with the others that you mentioned.

When I design a speaker, especially something that will be used in home theater applications, I am very careful to keep impedance's high where receivers and tube amps will be happy. So most of our MTM designs use a pair of 16 ohm woofers in parallel. This gives you high sensitivity and good output capability and an easy to driver 8 ohm nominal impedance.

The A/V-3 is a good choice for you. It even has a matching A/V-3S center channel. With Sonicap upgrades it will hold its own with most of the top level expensive speakers out there. The soft dome tweeter is also very forgiving of budget gear. It is a smooth and well balanced speaker with a clean vocal range that you will never get tired of listening to.

The N series models step performance up a bit with a higher resolution planar magnetic tweeter. All else is the same. It offers a little more detail across the board. The more expensive and much higher quality tube connectors are not an option on the N series kits. They come standard with them. This is a pretty high level design that you can build a system around.

Both A/V-3 and the N3 are built around a rear terminated transmission line that will play down deep with very clean and tight bass response. The matching centers are sealed and can be placed near the front wall.

The X-Series kits are also good considerations. There are some listed here that I don't have on the web site yet: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90911.0  These have fully assembled networks and are really good choices for beginners. Crossover parts quality can be upgraded to get them up into the same ballpark as our other kits.

If you have more questions, post them. There are many here that have been there and done that too, and they may answer your questions before I can. Becoming a customer is kind of like joining a family around here. 

[Hank]

Todd - my comment on the receiver thing, is that you should put as much money as you can afford now into speakers, then start to save money for upgrading your electronics.  Buy separates:  preamp (or pre/pro) and power amp(s).  There are several high performance, rugged designs out there that you can buy used with confidence.  There are several sources, including the Amplification thread on the Trading Post forum here on AudioCircle.

[Captainhemo]

Hi Todd
first off,   what Danny said about joining a family  seems to be very true around here...  whether it be Sanny himself or   someone else  in  this forum, there always seems to be help available if you need it.   Someone is always willing to help

My first build was a pair of  N3 TL's with the Sonicap/Mils upgrade and they  are wonderful   (my folks  now have them  and  simply love them).   I was driving them with an older Integra DTR 5.3  at 80WPC which I believe is the same  as your reciever and basically mde by the same company.  They worked very  well together.
I do believe the N3 cross over is a bit tougher to assemble compared to the AV3 ( the N3 network diagramed in  a chematic while I believe the AV3  is more of a  picture/beginner format ).
I can't say enough about the  Neo 3 tweeter, it is so detailed  yet  never fatiging,  it's very smooth.
You'll be amazed at the bass response   of those  5 1/4"  drivers  via the TL.  Very  tight and defined.  Takes a litle geting used to at first  (might seem  a bit  weak if you are used to "boomy" spekers) but once  you get used to it, there is no going back. 

I was also very impressed with the X LS Encores  I built for an Xmas  gift.  At $149 for a kit,  they  are  impressive..   I don't  put them  in a class with the N3's but for  $149  , wow    Also worth noting,  the  X LS Encores i built and listened to did NOT have the Sonicpa/Mils upgrades, by adding    them  you'd take them up  another level as may here can   confirm

hehe, once final   comment,  when  I  was trying to decide between the AV3 and N3 for my first build,  I finally went with the N3 feeling that if I didn't ,  i would always wonder   what I was missing  and figured I'd end up   just wanting to upgrade if I went with the AV3.   
Like I mentioned above, I was extremeluy  happy with the N3's and could have  easily  stuck with them for many years . However , an  unexpected   request from my folks  to buy  them  sent me down that upgrade path  anyway 

Good luck  with your  first build whatever you  decide  on.   if  you do end up going with a GR product and feel up to it,  I'm  lots of us would  love to follow along   if you  were to do a build  thread,  they are alwyaas great to watch .

-jay

[mlundy57]

Todd,

It sounds like you have four speakers to choose from A/V-3, N3, X-MTM Classic and X-MTM Encore. The X-SLS Classic and X-SLS Encore are also towers but not an MTM design.

I haven't built any of the towers yet. I just finished building a pair of the X-LS Encore bookshelf speakers and the X-CS Encore center channel speaker. I am starting on a pair of the X-MTM Encore tower speakers next.  Based on the sound quality of the X-LS Encore's I expect great things from the X-MTM Encore towers.

I was going to build the N3/N3S combo when Danny offered the Encore kits at such terrific prices. Due to the price differences I chose to build out the Encores as my first DIY speaker project.

All of Danny's kits have options to upgrade the performance to one or more levels. The Encores have four levels for the crossover network (base + 3 upgrade levels). These are (1) basic network, (complete, just solder on leads and install); (2) upgrade capacitors; (3) upgrade capacitors and resistors (both options 2 and 3 use the network circuit board, just swaps out different parts); and (4) build a complete point-to-point wired crossover network (like you would with the N3) with upgraded inductors, capacitors and resisters. Then for even more clarity you can add by-pass caps.

That may sound like a lot but it is not that difficult with all the help available on this forum. I chose option 4, the complete upgrade and received all the help I needed to put it together.

All the models you might be interested in have been built by somebody on this forum. Check out their build threads. These threads not only discuss how the build was done but also what options were chosen as well as impressions about how the speakers sounded when they were finished. I found the search function at the top of each page to be helpful in finding build threads, just type in the model name.

If you are looking for the most performance for the least amount of money you can't beat the X-Series kits.

Mike

[corndog71]

I highly recommend the X-series Encore kits.  The X-SLS or X-Statik for the front channels plus either an X-CS or better yet X-Voce for center duty and a pair of either AV/1RS or X-Omnis for surrounds along with a servo sub makes an absolutely KILLER home theater rig.  It's pretty damn good for music too. 

At my old apartment I had the X-Statiks with X-Voce up front.  And over there in the corner was my home-built servo subwoofer.

[greenklein]

Wow!  Thanks everyone for your responses.  Exactly the type of help I need. 

Peter, I’m sure you get the big bucks!  Ha… actually having read through many build threads on this site what you mentioned is very evident.  All of the great (and detailed) responses for my questions show this as well.  Thanks for responding.

Hank, I will certainly look into the AV-3’s.  I’ll track down some build threads.

Mike ,Jay, and Corndog thanks for the suggestions and insight!  Is choosing a speaker to build tougher than building them?

Danny, thanks for helping on the compatibility issues with my receiver.  That narrows the decision down tremendously!  Also detailing the differences between the A/V-3 and the N3 was very helpful.  How would the x-mtm encore w/upgrades compare with those two?  How much would the encore be with all of the upgrades?  I saw on the link you provided that the “standard” version was $219.  I am also assuming that the AV-3 and the X-mtm would both take 3 sheets of no rez?

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts.  Guess I’ll be browsing some more build threads!  I’m thinking that the choices have been narrowed to the X-MTM encores, AV-3 or the N3’s – all upgraded.  My brain hurts!

Todd

[dlparker]

I've been looking at the GR Research line myself. The N3 and the A/V3 are both very tempting, but the N2X may be the one, given it's smaller size, price, and the availability of PE cabs. I've gone from a pair of  HH Scott Model 166s that I've had for 35 years or so, to a pair of Hsu HB-1s, to the Pioneer SP-BS22-LRs. I haven't swapped out the Pioneers for the Hsus yet to compare, but they're both keepers.

[mlundy57]

Is choosing a speaker to build tougher than building them?

Uhhhh, yep 

Mike

[Danny Richie]

At my old apartment I had the X-Statiks with X-Voce up front.

I still have quite a few fully assembled X-Voce.

[pianoman84d]

Hey Danny,

Thoughts on matching x-voce with x-sls encore ninja master upgraded mains?

Thanks (and thanks again for helping me choose on that other project...)

[greenklein]

Mike,  I have checked out your build thread and it was very helpful.  I am sure I will get back to it when I choose a build.  I may end up choosing the encore builds as well although the thing that keeps me back is the height of the enclosures for the X-mtm's encores.  Are the cabinet plans the same as the classics on the web page?  What would I give up if I just chose to use the X-CS encores with stands?  I think I am where you were a while back.  Originally thinking about the N3's and N3s, but the prices on the encores is very tempting!

hehe, once final   comment,  when  I  was trying to decide between the AV3 and N3 for my first build,  I finally went with the N3 feeling that if I didn't ,  i would always wonder   what I was missing  and figured I'd end up   just wanting to upgrade if I went with the AV3.   

Part of the problem I'm having!! Ha... I'm sure I would be amazed at any of the options though to tell the truth.

Danny,  having read through many build threads etc on this page it is noteworthy how much assistance you have given.  Awesome customer service.  How much would the upgrade options be for the A/V 3's and X-MTM encores be if I went for the full meal deal as Mike did with the inductors, capacitors,  resisters and by-pass caps?

One last question!!  Well, for the time being anyway...it appears that placement is important for these towers.  Is 12" away from the wall too close for these? 

Thanks,

Todd

[greenklein]

Oh yeah, thanks Corndog for giving me even more options to consider!  Ha... I've been checking those out as well. 

Todd

[SoCalWJS]

I still have quite a few fully assembled X-Voce.

Good choice for the center channel!

[Captainhemo]

Todd,  if you are worried about 12" not being far enough from the front  wall  you  can always flip the TL   an  have them front  vented as I did with my N3's
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108845.msg1120138#msg1120138

You  can  do this with either the  AV3 or N3 TL's

-jay

[Danny Richie]

Hey Danny,

Thoughts on matching x-voce with x-sls encore ninja master upgraded mains?

Thanks (and thanks again for helping me choose on that other project...)

They will match pretty well but the X-Voce will have a sensitivity advantage. The X-Voce was designed to match the X-Statik.

Note that the X-Voce is an open baffle MTM and needs to be out a little bit from the front wall and open to the top. Likewise, the X-Statik's need space since they too are an open baffle design.

Some deals that I can still make on these:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95858.msg958492#msg958492

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106681.0

[Danny Richie]

Danny,  having read through many build threads etc on this page it is noteworthy how much assistance you have given.  Awesome customer service.  How much would the upgrade options be for the A/V 3's and X-MTM encores be if I went for the full meal deal as Mike did with the inductors, capacitors,  resisters and by-pass caps?

The A/V-3 kit is $329. Sonicap upgrade is $72. Tube connector upgrade is $50

The X-MTM Encore kit (one pair) is $279. To upgrade to Erse inductors, Mills resistors, and Sonicaps with Gen.2 by-pass caps, is $196 (and that is deducting for the stock crossover).

One last question!!  Well, for the time being anyway...it appears that placement is important for these towers.  Is 12" away from the wall too close for these?

You can get by with these as close as 12" from the wall, but check out the good advice from Captainhemo. If any closer to the front wall then do what he suggests.