How low do your speakers go?

Lost81 · « **on:** 25 Jul 2004, 07:06 pm »

Just wondering here, how low in the frequency range do your speakers go?

Let's say that your speakers only go to 40Hz, what do you do then?
Is it really hard to get a sub to fill in the missing 20 to 39.99Hz?

From what I have read, most subs are of the lower quality type, only suitable for HT. B&W being one of the few manufacturers that makes subs of sufficient quality for music duty....

Without having speakers that can go down real low, the impact of listening to church organs is heavily compromised.

-Lost81

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 07:28 pm »

I have measured bass down to 20Hz (down less than 6 db's) and even gotten some response at 16Hz.

As for musical subs...

REL Strata
VMPS Larger

George

Malcolm Fear · « **Reply #2 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 07:34 pm »

I think you need to keep reading.
There are a lot of subs that are "hi fi".
Some interesting ones that I have heard are at Chris Brady's of Teres Turntable fame. Have a look at his site. http://teresaudio.com/haven/

There is a sub woofer forum at http://www.diysubwoofers.org/talkshop/

Joe Rasmussen has an interesting design at http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Ejoeras/sub_index.htm#Additional%20Construction

bubba966 · « **Reply #3 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 07:35 pm »

Quote from: Lost81

From what I have read, most subs are of the lower quality type, only suitable for HT.

Low quality subs are NOT suitable for HT use. You need a sub of equal or better quality for HT use than you do for "music" use.

My speaks only go down to the mid 70's...

Jens · « **Reply #4 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 09:23 pm »

Hi Lost81,

I haven't got a sub, but my speakers go down to 20 Hz at around -3-4 dB. But then of course they are not run-of-mill thngs, but a dedicated DIY project.

I call them the Equilibrium Project, because top end goes to around 40 kHz. That sort of balances things very nicely

Cheers,

Jens

stvnharr · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 02:30 am »

If you want a sub, get Rick Craig's Whomp sub from Selah Audio on the circles. Of course you have to build a box, but this is diy audio!

EchiDna · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 02:56 am »

there is a 1000 sub designs running around on the web, as it is probably the first thing a lot of people attempt as a DIY speaker project... Is there such a thing as a definitive design? Everyone has their own taste, so TL, Sealed, Ported, Bandpass, Isobaric, horn loaded... they all have their strong and weak points...

I know from previous postings Hugh has a sub somewhere in his future plan to mate with the AKSonics, so hopefully this thread might get it a little closer to the top of the list??

andyr · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 11:07 am »

Quote from: stvnharr

If you want a sub, get Rick Craig's Whomp sub from Selah Audio on the circles. Of course you have to build a box, but this is diy audio!

Steven,

My understanding is that Rick's plate amp is a 12dB LP crossover - as such, it is not good for "hi-fi" subs, only HT subs. You need minimum 18dB and, preferably, 24dB LF slopes for good "hi-fi" subs. Just like you need a stereo pair and not just one.

TRegards,

Andy

JohnR · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 11:12 am »

"Turn out the light.
Don't try to save me."

?

Tinker · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 11:35 am »

Quote from: Lost81

Just wondering here, how low in the frequency range do your speakers go?

Is it really hard to get a sub to fill in the missing 20 to 39.99Hz?

Original Phoenix dipole sub. Siegfried's original system test page plots the -3dB point at 13Hz. As folk know I like to measure stuff. Measuring the response at this frequency is alsmost impossible in a house owing to room interactions. The best attempt at a free-field measurement (outside) suggests that there is appreciable power below 20Hz.
It's pretty low.

Others may disagree, but IMHO it seems hard to get really good bass below 40Hz without very large drivers or electronic assistance, or both. The real pain is finding drivers that don't cost and arm and a leg!

T.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 12:02 pm »

Quote from: bubba966

Quote from: Lost81
From what I have read, most subs are of the lower quality type, only suitable for HT.

Low quality subs are NOT suitable for HT use. You need a sub of equal or better quality for HT use than you do for "music" use.

I'm with Lost81 on this one: many subwoofers seem to be of the one-note-thump variety that lend themselves to creating effects for
certain types of movies. You may be defining "suitable for HT" differently than others??? I don't know what subs bubba uses, so I'm NOT talking about his gear.

Personally, I have audio speakers with mere 8" woofers , so low freq. are limited:

I've thought of adding a musical sub, but have always been dissuaded by concerns about integration and price (and local availability). The REL subs (mentioned above) have been one of the few brands recommended (as being musical and actually taking on the sonic character of the amp).

Disclaimer: my subwoofer experience is limited but I've never been impressed enough to cough up the $$$ for any I've heard.

andyr · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 12:20 pm »

Hey, Tonto,

Those are ETFs are they not? I've certainly seen a speaker which looks like yours before. I have heard they attract the same degree of "tweaking" that Maggies do ... is that true?

For instance, those pissy little feet are just like Maggie feet ... do yourself a favour - buy some decent stands to replace them which hold the panel rigid. There are Mye Stands in Canada who I know build Maggie stands (because Grant VanderMye has some!) ... maybe he'll make up some for yours?

Regards,

Andy

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 12:35 pm »

Quote from: andyr

Hey, Tonto,

Those are ETFs are they not?... I have heard they attract the same degree of "tweaking" that Maggies do ... is that true?
For instance, those pissy little feet are just like Maggie feet ...
Regards,
Andy

Andy,
you're close---they're LFT VIII's (Linear Field Transducers). Much less common than Maggies, so the tweaking forums don't address them as much. As to the feet, Sound Anchors makes dedicated ET stands for ~$200 that are much more substantial and lead/sand fillable. I bought the Anchors shortly after getting the speakers (they really should be considered essential).

andyr · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 12:45 pm »

Quote from: Tonto Yoder

Andy,
you're close---they're LFT VIII's (Linear Field Transducers). Much less common than Maggies, so the tweaking forums don't address them as much. As to the feet, Sound Anchors makes dedicated ET stands for ~$200 that are much more substantial and lead/sand fillable. I bought the Anchors shortly after getting the speakers (they really should be considered essential).

Hi, Tonto,

Yeah, LFTs. Glad to hear you have some good stands. When I had some some steel stands mad up for my Maggie IIIas, they sure sounded better!

How do your speakers sound? Do they have fabulous highs? ... great bass? ... lyrical, shimmering sound?

Have you tweaked the crossovers any? Can you drive them actively?

Regards,

Andy

Regards,

Andy

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 01:04 pm »

Andy,
yes the ET's sound much better with the Sound Anchors--the bass tightened up considerably (which is a definite plus with an 8" woofer).. The stands are basically a metal "H' underneath the bass boxes, so I'm sure a local metalworker could have made some up. They rusted a little so I sprayed them with some Dynacoat (Dynamat-in-a-can) and repainted them black.

I keep planning to play around with them, tweak-wise, but have put that off
'til a rainy day. I'd like to remove the crossover and maybe Black-Hole/Soundcoat the bass box. In an ideal world, bass would be a little better--it's fast and musical, but just a little lower would be better.

BTW, there's an interesting review on the ET site about "stacking" LFT VIII's (i.e. putting them side-by-side), touting the configuration as a "Poor Man's IRS."
http://www.eminent-tech.com/main.html
(go to "Reviews" if interested).

ABEX · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 05:12 pm »

I use NEAR M50III's(which only a few people have), M50's and M10's. All of these have modified updated drivers from Bill Kieltyka the original designer who was a former designer for Bozak. He was one of the first to successfully introduce Metal Driver Technology in home speakers.

Anyway, one thing he mentioned to me last time we talked was that one thing his speakers were not shy on is Bass and for anyone that has heard them they will vouch for that.

The newer drivers are even better in the Bass department even though they measure about the same as his older drivers. I had both sets of drivers on hand and the difference between the 2 in the Bass department was strikeing. They go flat to about 42 and then fall off.

These are older erviews not using the updated drivers of his designs. It's ashame he no longer makes speakers for the home market. I am real lucky to know him.

M50's
http://www.soundstage.com/wrk_nr50.htm
M15's
http://www.soundstage.com/entry06.htm
M10's
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/greg14.htm

I am finding that I do not really need a sub for music as most of the music I listen to does not have to much info below the 42Hz. point,but for HT it is a plus to have. I sold my sub and want to get another that is able to go to 25Hz. Flat before rolling off.

It's not how much Bass one has but how accurate it is and what happens in the soundstage that counts also. If it is bland and does not go through\accross the soundstage it is really not as musical.

Just thinking!

dogears · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 05:24 pm »

Though I have a Q series REL sub, it still very musical. However, I'm not using it as often as I did after upgrading my AKSA55W with the Nirvana upgrade

I've also heard my brother's Hsu VTF2. It does a very good job for both music and HT.

dogears
http://gojiro.tripod.com/eyvee/eyvee.html

Lost81 · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 Jul 2004, 02:02 am »

Just to clarify.
When I stated my opinion that HT subs tend not to cut it for music, I meant that HT subs are able to generate that giant thump here and there, but that's it. In heavy musical passages that demand the bass keep up with the midrange and treble, HT subs can't keep up. Remember, we are talking about church organs here, not an explosion or car crash here and there...

Cheers,
-Lost81

bubba966 · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Jul 2004, 02:43 am »

And I'm saying that if a sub can't keep up for music use, then it's worthless for HT use as well. Which is why an "HT" sub needs to be as good, or better than a "music" sub. An "HT" sub needs to be tight & fast ("music" sub qualities), as well as be able to put out some serious low end.

I'm just tired of hearing "it's a sub-standard music sub, but good for HT". That's a load. Only people that don't give a damn (or couldn't tell a good sub if it bit 'em in the ass) about HT say such things. The sub in HT is the second most important part of an HT setup (right after a good center channel).

This myth of "crappy music/good HT sub" really needs to stop.

Benny, I'm not trying to pick on you in any manner ( I apologize if it looks like I am). I'm just trying to say that low quality subs that just go boom are not just un-acceptable for "music" use. They're unacceptable period.

ABEX · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Jul 2004, 02:56 am »

Bubba:
Just like with everything else your going to pay for an ultimate Musical Sub that is fast, accurate,clean and can do both with equal amount of quality with no tradeoffs. Room interaction is one of the biggest hurdles in getting a setup ,including the sub interaction , correct.