[wushuliu]

Only when they have some intelligent content, thank you very such.

* You want me to change my avatar because it doesn't complied with the rules of your forum? ...Gimme a break please!

Oh boy. No surprise. You've been askin' for it a while. Not everyone is made for the internet, and I think you're one of them.

"Communicating your intended message requires skill, patience, composure, composition, etc.
...Stuff that I'm working on every single day of my life. ...Same as for controlling my emotions, as a human being."

I'm glad you're self-aware and working on these things, but IMO you're not doing so well with the 'skill, patience, composure, composition' part. Like you know, blowing off the moderator of the ENTIRE FORUM.  

[FullRangeMan]

Well FRM part of that is because artists like Elvis and Brian Wilson are quentissentially American; there is an aspect to their music that I think resonates most with Americans. Not that others can't derive the same amount of pleasure, but I think just like many other artists in other countries their work has a particular impact to that culture.

I like Roy Orbison, but he can't sway those hips. Swaying hips can do a lot for a dude. Just sayin'!

Do you mean say kitsch artirst as Elvis are true sample of the Amarican public taste??

Now I understand why they built Las Vegas.

[wushuliu]

Do you mean say kitsch artirst as Elvis are true sample of the Amarican public taste??

Now I understand why they built Las Vegas.

No, it's much more complicated than that I'm afraid. Las Vegas IS a good example though of a quintissential American product. What they both have in common to their populairty is not the 'kitsch' but 'the dream'. Now to tie it all back in to Brian Wilson it's the same thing; Brian was/is all about expressing a pure, innocent in fact spiritual aspect of the American Dream. Not only in terms of lyrics but also the 'pop' format in which his songs were based. Even in that documentary I linked they show legendary composer Leonard Bernstein singling out Brian Wilson as the vital new direction of American music and a continuation of classical evolution. So you can call those things 'kitsch' but you can't dismiss the greater significance in relation to the 'American' mythos.

[FullRangeMan]

No, it's much more complicated than that I'm afraid. Las Vegas IS a good example though of a quintissential American product. What they both have in common to their populairty is not the 'kitsch' but 'the dream'. Now to tie it all back in to Brian Wilson it's the same thing; Brian was/is all about expressing a pure, innocent in fact spiritual aspect of the American Dream. Not only in terms of lyrics but also the 'pop' format in which his songs were based. Even in that documentary I linked they show legendary composer Leonard Bernstein singling out Brian Wilson as the vital new direction of American music and a continuation of classical evolution. So you can call those things 'kitsch' but you can't dismiss the greater significance in relation to the 'American' mythos.

Seems the American Dream is the dream of every poor people in this planet, have a happy and abundant life.

I think the same think happen here, the more ordinary the music, the more successful it is.

[SJ David]

Growing up in the 60's, I liked the Beach Boys. I thought they were slightly better than many other groups since they could sing so well. But I never understood the great admiration for Brian Wilson. Even to this day he is fawned over. Why? Did I miss something which was greater than I perceived back then? And what has he done since which deserves such high praise? I am not dissing him or his admirers. I just don't get it. Please explain what it is I missed/am missing.  I am open-minded enough to try to understand.

Brian had a capacity to think in terms of musical expressions. This may sound simplistic but hearing a musical performance in your mind first and constructing the musical score and guiding musicians to duplicate that performance that exists only in your mind is a true talent.

Brian used many of the LA-based session musicians. You will find many respectful comments from those involved in sessions with Wilson about the talent of the then young maverick.  Some will also mention his perfectionist ways evidenced by repeatedly running through the same few bars trying subtle differences to get the “right” sound.

David

[InfernoSTi]

I think a lot of the admiration is because of who admired his Pet Sounds album...I mean really, saying Sgt Pepper's wouldn't have happened without Pet Sounds and Paul McCartney referring to "God Only Knows" as his favorite song of all-time?  How do you not admire someone the greats admire? 

For me it is song #6 on the album: "Let's Go Away For A While" and the amazing composition, the collection of instruments, the separation and combination that occurs.  The tones and texture and pace.  What a dream...

Best,
John

[blutto]

Do you mean say kitsch artirst as Elvis are true sample of the Amarican public taste??

Now I understand why they built Las Vegas.

....absolutely correct on both counts.....as much as anything because the competition is pretty thin....the decades of absolute dreck from Tin Pan Alley?....nutrition-less confections from Nashville that give you cavities of the brain ?.....

....that being said, when El was on his game, he was an amazing artist....sadly a big part of his career was just pissed down the toilet that is Vegas ( the official epicentre of American public taste )....he should have stayed on the edges of American culture whence he came and he might have stayed great....unfortunately the mass-market-oriented Vegas El turned into just another bit of embarrassing overblown dreck....ironic eh?...

....substantive culture is not America's long suit, unfortunately.....

Cheers

[rockadanny]

Brian had a capacity to think in terms of musical expressions. This may sound simplistic but hearing a musical performance in your mind first and constructing the musical score and guiding musicians to duplicate that performance that exists only in your mind is a true talent.

Brian used many of the LA-based session musicians. You will find many respectful comments from those involved in sessions with Wilson about the talent of the then young maverick.  Some will also mention his perfectionist ways evidenced by repeatedly running through the same few bars trying subtle differences to get the “right” sound.

Very interesting insight SJ. Thank you for sharing.

My interest in giving BW more consideration is certainly growing. Sometimes stories behind the music can open your ear/mind, allowing you to hear deeper into the music and appreciate it more. This happened to me with Eva Cassidy. When I first heard her I thought, "wow, real nice voice", but did not pursue her work. After reading her history I became more intrigued with her, spent more quality time with her music, and ended up better enjoying her music at a much deeper level.

[FullRangeMan]

....absolutely correct on both counts.....as much as anything because the competition is pretty thin....the decades of absolute dreck from Tin Pan Alley?....nutrition-less confections from Nashville that give you cavities of the brain ?.....

....that being said, when El was on his game, he was an amazing artist....sadly a big part of his career was just pissed down the toilet that is Vegas ( the official epicentre of American public taste )....he should have stayed on the edges of American culture whence he came and he might have stayed great....unfortunately the mass-market-oriented Vegas El turned into just another bit of embarrassing overblown dreck....ironic eh?...

....substantive culture is not America's long suit, unfortunately.....

Cheers

Thanks for this analisys.
I unknow Vegas is the center of the Amarican culture, what seems consistent with the country's reality.
Also NYC for bussiness model.
Regards

[Devil Doc]

I find the analysis of American culture, here, quite interesting. Let's not forget, that Jazz, America's only indigenous art form, was born in the whore houses and speakeasies of New Orleans and Chicago.

Doc

[mitch stl]

I find the analysis of American culture, here, quite interesting. Let's not forget, that Jazz, America's only indigenous art form, was born in the whore houses and speakeasies of New Orleans and Chicago.

Doc

And, many famous classical pieces were "borrowed" from the traditional folk music of peasants and gypsies. All "new" music builds on what has gone before -- even jazz. (See http://www.redhotjazz.com/originsarticle.html for a short, very interesting article on the origins of jazz.)

[blutto]

I find the analysis of American culture, here, quite interesting. Let's not forget, that Jazz, America's only indigenous art form, was born in the whore houses and speakeasies of New Orleans and Chicago.

Doc

....yeah but though it was for a time a major culture consumable it was hardly the product of the American public....it was a strong echo from the slave culture that many parts of America lived off of....and to a great extent jazz is still informed by the lessons learned from that slave culture....

...btw there is also another fringe music form that could be called uniquely American and that is something that some would collect under the term hillbilly jazz...but much of that was long ago gobbled up and massified by the country music industry ( very much like the music industry has been living off the various reflections of jazz and its antecedents since the 1820's....though often distorting them beyond recognition in the process... )

Cheers

[jarcher]

Thanks for this analisys.
I unknow Vegas is the center of the Amarican culture, what seems consistent with the country's reality.
Also NYC for bussiness model.
Regards

Uh sorry guys - I'm calling BS on this one and the "....substantive culture is not America's long suit, unfortunately.....".  And I'm no blind-folded flag-waving American having been born & raised most of my life outside the USA......

Just cause it's entertaining don't mean it's crap.  That's an elitist argument.  If the world owes the USA any small measure of gratitude, it's for our "culture" which in the 20th century has rightfully delighted millions around the globe like no other nation on earth.  Now stepping down from my soap box.......... 

[wushuliu]

Uh sorry guys - I'm calling BS on this one and the "....substantive culture is not America's long suit, unfortunately.....".  And I'm no blind-folded flag-waving American having been born & raised most of my life outside the USA......

Just cause it's entertaining don't mean it's crap.  That's an elitist argument.  If the world owes the USA any small measure of gratitude, it's for our "culture" which in the 20th century has rightfully delighted millions around the globe like no other nation on earth.  Now stepping down from my soap box..........

I agree, that post is not even worth commenting on. Can we go back to Brian Wilson please?

[jarcher]

I agree, that post is not even worth commenting on. Can we go back to Brian Wilson please?

Sorry - gotta lay off the booze.  Yes, let's get back to BW please!

[wushuliu]

Sorry - gotta lay off the booze.  Yes, let's get back to BW please!

Wasn't referring to your post, btw. Talking about FRM, etc.

Back on topic I became a Brian Wilson fan forever when I heard 'Surf's Up/Child is the Father to the Man. There's this unique meloncholy but at the same time that innocence, all wrapped up in those intense chords and harmonies. The song gets me every time.

[thunderbrick]

I've long heard about Pet Sounds and became more curious based on this thread, so I found a sealed WB 180gram mono reissue.

Careful listening reveals the many layers of music, subtle little musical touches in the background.  Recording quality is a little uneven; sometimes thin and distant on the vocals interspersed with much better cuts.   Will have to give it a few more spins to make up my mind.     

[coverto]

For those looking to delve further, the inconclusive "Smile" sessions that took place subsequent to "Pet Sounds" make for fascinating listening. Certainly not for everybody, but gives a window into Wison's creative process, as well as his descent into mental illness, unfortunately. I have an earlier bootleg version on cassette that also includes a couple of somewhat disturbing musical collaborations between little brother/drummer Dennis Wilson and Charles Manson.

His autobiography "Wouldn't it be Nice," if you can find it, is a good read - a surprisingly dark look into the dynamics inside the Beach Boys. Mike Love comes off as particularly satanic.

While "Pet Sounds" is obviously among the greatest albums ever, the Beach Boys' first album "Surfer Girl" is also a bit of an underrated tour de force.

[wushuliu]

For those looking to delve further, the inconclusive "Smile" sessions that took place subsequent to "Pet Sounds" make for fascinating listening. Certainly not for everybody, but gives a window into Wison's creative process, as well as his descent into mental illness, unfortunately. I have an earlier bootleg version on cassette that also includes a couple of somewhat disturbing musical collaborations between little brother/drummer Dennis Wilson and Charles Manson.

His autobiography "Wouldn't it be Nice," if you can find it, is a good read - a surprisingly dark look into the dynamics inside the Beach Boys. Mike Love comes off as particularly satanic.

While "Pet Sounds" is obviously among the greatest albums ever, the Beach Boys' first album "Surfer Girl" is also a bit of an underrated tour de force.

Agreed. No doubt part of 'getting' Brian Wilson is understanding what he accomplished and listening to the breadth of what he's done and not just going in with the mindset of I'm listening to the Beach Boys. If someone didn't have much exposure to the Beatles and listened to Sgt. Pepper they would probably shrug it off. These are artists who have had so much influence in subtle ways that it can be hard to grasp what was so brilliant about them to begin with (*cough* Rclark re: Pink Floyd *cough*). If I had not spent so much time learning about 60s music and watching great docs I would have shrugged off Brian Wilson, but after watching multiple docs and reading (and listening of course) I stand in awe. For instance you can hear in the Beatles evolution when Paul changed his bass playing to emulate Brian Wilson's. Paul's playing blossomed after being exposed to Brian's work. The difference between the two of them being The Beatles had a support system to explore and change the face of music but Brian was stifled and pressured into depression and bed-ridden mental illness.

Brian Wilson is very much like Syd Barrett where understanding the context makes a difference as well as listening to a range of the work. You have to go from Piper to Jugband Blues to Madcap Laughs to really get a sense of Barrett's brilliance and illness.

Also, Mike Love is an a-hole. One of the worst kind of people: the type who live to smother dreamers. He's what 70 yrs old and people are STILL calling him a jerk for what he continues to do to Brian.

When it comes to Brian Wilson I think about what could have been if he had the love and support the Beatles had...

[coverto]

Agreed. No doubt part of 'getting' Brian Wilson is understanding what he accomplished and listening to the breadth of what he's done and not just going in with the mindset of I'm listening to the Beach Boys. If someone didn't have much exposure to the Beatles and listened to Sgt. Pepper they would probably shrug it off. These are artists who have had so much influence in subtle ways that it can be hard to grasp what was so brilliant about them to begin with (*cough* Rclark re: Pink Floyd *cough*). If I had not spent so much time learning about 60s music and watching great docs I would have shrugged off Brian Wilson, but after watching multiple docs and reading (and listening of course) I stand in awe. For instance you can hear in the Beatles evolution when Paul changed his bass playing to emulate Brian Wilson's. Paul's playing blossomed after being exposed to Brian's work. The difference between the two of them being The Beatles had a support system to explore and change the face of music but Brian was stifled and pressured into depression and bed-ridden mental illness.

Brian Wilson is very much like Syd Barrett where understanding the context makes a difference as well as listening to a range of the work. You have to go from Piper to Jugband Blues to Madcap Laughs to really get a sense of Barrett's brilliance and illness.

Also, Mike Love is an a-hole. One of the worst kind of people: the type who live to smother dreamers. He's what 70 yrs old and people are STILL calling him a jerk for what he continues to do to Brian.

When it comes to Brian Wilson I think about what could have been if he had the love and support the Beatles had...

You said it - Brian Wilson went through absolute hell in his childhood, and things got even worse for many, many years as an adult.

As for Syd, also very tragic - his were my favorite of the Pink Floyd years by far. But he did at least appear to have left the band with an odd kind of dignity intact. Fascinating to hear Roger Waters tell the story.