[JohnR]

Well done, Duke and James 

http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/10/15/rmaf-2013-audiokinesis-james-romeyn/

What's the "patent pending Manipulated Vortex Waveguide"? Is that the curious looking speakers in the photos further down?

[James Romeyn]

Well done, Duke and James 

What's the "patent pending Manipulated Vortex Waveguide"? Is that the curious looking speakers in the photos further down?

Thanks so much for your note, John.   

Yes.  MVW was developed by a couple of guys, at least one ex-military.  It is also apparently based on military studies regarding noise made by jet engines, hence the "vortex" moniker.

Per conversations with Duke, the technology is strange and unique.  Even when flush with the wall, its bass loads the room similar to a Distributed Bass Array.  The louder it plays the more dynamic it is, the opposite of every other technology.  Duke said this makes it less suited for a recording monitor because the engineer would likely over-compress to compensate.  But it would make for a great "tracking monitor" required for pleasing sound for the artist after making a quick test recording, because it's so lively sounding. 

Sound projects out of the box like nothing I've heard.  It just explodes outward, and stops immediately when the note is gone.   

For lack of a better word, it sounds "dry" overall, but your ear very quickly adjusts and enjoys the effect.  I absolutely agree with Duke that the bass appears to "stop" quicker than any other cone loading.  The mids are also MVW.

Duke worked miracles on the crossover right up till he left home Thursday morning while I setup the room.  Speaker cable was 16AWG or 18AWG zip cord, with tiny little test leads at the end for easy connect/disconnect to the amp.         

[Duke]

Well done, Duke and James 

What's the "patent pending Manipulated Vortex Waveguide"? Is that the curious looking speakers in the photos further down?

Thank you, John!

To answer your question, yes it's that curious looking speaker.

I started a new thread about them, as I think they deserve their own thread, this one being devoted to the Dream Maker LCS system.

[James Romeyn]

Yesterday is the first time I heard Dream Maker LCS in my own room.  Without qualification this is the best audio/music reproduction I've heard. 

Later today Duke and I test LCS performance in a huge room with 16' ceiling.  After I setup DM LCS again in this room, I'll post images.

Performance notes in random order...

Bass mode damping effects: This room has horrific bass modes.  Bass performance is as linear as that provided by my four-sub DEBRA distributed sub array, which so far I don't miss.  DM LCS system has four enclosures, six mid bass, and eight dual-flared ports (four 3", four 2").  Users can run each port either open or air-tight sealed (plugs included).  That's a sum total of fourteen bass sources, each with disparate boundary path length.  Translation: smooth, linear, and musical bass in this room gives me complete confidence for the same in any room except for possibly a perfect cube.  Later I'll measure and post warble tones.  I estimate solid f3 in the low 30 Hz range.   

Bass modes are so thoroughly flattened that you can pretty much ignore Cardas' setup requirements.  IOW, install the Main Speakers where you like, for ideal mid/treble.  Ideally, install the Effects Speakers behind the Main Speakers, the latter mostly "shadowing" the former. 

The main advantage of Cardas' advice is to spread bass mode effects.  DM LCS' fourteen bass sources with disparate boundary path lengths efficiently flattens bass modes.  The other interesting thing is that the six mid bass extend much higher than subs active crossed @ 80 Hz.  This means DM LCS provides its mode flattening advantage higher in frequency than the subs, and this advantage is audible. 

Setup/amp/more bass mode damping items: I have two 2003 Pioneer 912 HT receivers, pure analog preamp stage (presumably with IC ultra high tolerance stepped attenuators), pure analog IC power amp, 100W (rated only for 8 Ohms).  The 912's have a long list of passive mods which together are quite helpful. 

The higher the speaker's sensitivity, the higher its impedance, and more linear its impedance (above the bass range), the better performs the 912.  Think of it like an OTL source and you get the idea.  On the wrong load it sounds pretty awful.  (On a side note, it's interesting that impedance irregularities below the bass range can actually help flatten bass mode effects.)   

I first separated Main Speakers and Effects Speakers, running four x 100W into 8 Ohms per speaker.  Knowing the 912's distortion spectra improve into higher impedance (exactly as per every known SS amp, but more so with the 912 because its IC amp is low current), I later tried and preferred MS and ES in series (same as at RMAF), two 912 channels making about 50W each @ 16 Ohms. 

I think, in this 3000cf room, two 50W SS channels play as loud or louder than the 45W tube amp in a smaller room at RMAF.  This is interesting because I generally thought it takes about twice as many SS watts to equal tube watts.  At any level I can stand there is no audible distortion.

So, surprisingly, two x 50W performs better than four x 100W (worse distortion spectra, extra voltage apparently unnecessary.  I found a way to employ two Pioneer 912 receivers for only two channels: one 912 powers the L ch, the other receiver powers the R ch.  Manually set both volume controls for the same level.  The remote tracks both levels controls in parallel.  Using two receivers doubles the current source.  Performance seems audibly better than one receiver for both channels.   

The middle of three binding posts on the Main Speaker is an amplifier adjustment for tubes (shorting wire in place) or SS (remove shorting wire).  This adjustment works exactly as described, and IMO should be a high end standard.  Removing the shorting wire absolutely and immediately caused the SS amp to more closely approximate the dense, dreamy, luscious sound of the OTL at RMAF.   

I'll post more later about setup tuning with the ports open vs. sealed. 

The ratio grows of audiophiles firmly convinced that digital EQ and/or digital crossover is absolutely necessary for ultimate performance.  Dream Maker LCS is a powerful challenge to that paradigm, and IMO firmly and thoroughly trashes it.
   

   

[bibo01]

Hi Duke,

I bought a Swarm v2 from you a few years ago...
This Dream Maker LCS is rather interesting.
Could you please tell me what range the Main Speakers and Effects Speakers cover respectively?
Do you have any measurement?
What's the system efficiency?
Thanks,

Gianluca

[bradmorris1]

Duke,

I have pair of Prismas I got from you a couple of years ago.  It took a little while for them to break in but they are really singing now.  I especially love them for their gorgeous sounding midrange and how lifelike the drums sound as well as the "you are there at the live event" dynamics.  Do you think that adding the LCS would be just as effective with these speakers as the Dream Makers and what specifically would be the added benefit sonically?  thanks.

Brad

[jtwrace]

Maybe you can talk Duke into putting together a test pair to send around to current AK Speaker Owners.  Keep them for a week or less and send to the next owner.  This could be an upgrade path for some.   

[Duke]

Hi Duke,

I bought a Swarm v2 from you a few years ago...
This Dream Maker LCS is rather interesting.
Could you please tell me what range the Main Speakers and Effects Speakers cover respectively?
Do you have any measurement?
What's the system efficiency?
Thanks,

Gianluca

Hi Gianluca,

Good to hear from you!!

Both the Main Speakers and Effects Speakers are full range, mid-30's to 20 kHz (Mains) & 18 kHz (Effects).   Since the effects speaker is active down in the bass region, and since it's a different distance from the room boundaries than the woofer in the main speaker, we get some of the bass-mode-smoothing effect that the Swarm is so good at.  Not as much, because the bass sources are still fairly close to one another, but it's still an audible improvement. 

I have some impedance curves that cover the whole spectrum, but no frequency response curves that cover the whole spectrum.   Both the mains and effects speakers are 8 ohm loads, with the impedance staying well between 7 and 10 ohms above the bass impedance peaks.   

The mains are about 92 dB efficient, and the effects speakers are about 93 dB efficient.   Their impedance curves are smooth enough and similar enough that they can be wired in series to give a tube-friendly 16 ohm load, which is how we showed them at RMAF.  They can also be wired in parallel, for amps that prefer a 4 ohm load, or each can be driven by its own dedicated channel of amplification.

System efficiency is a little bit harder to gauge - normal efficiency measurements only look at the on-axis response, and a little over half the output of this system is dedicated specifically to off-axis (reverberant field) energy.  That being said, I would estimate that the system behaves as if its efficiency is about 94 dB; being a 16 ohm load, that translates to a 2.83 volt sensitivity of about 91 dB. 

Duke,

I have pair of Prismas I got from you a couple of years ago.  It took a little while for them to break in but they are really singing now.  I especially love them for their gorgeous sounding midrange and how lifelike the drums sound as well as the "you are there at the live event" dynamics.  Do you think that adding the LCS would be just as effective with these speakers as the Dream Makers and what specifically would be the added benefit sonically?  thanks.

Brad

Hi Brad,

I think the effects speakers would work well with the Priamas, as the impedance curves are going to be pretty similar, and the Prismas are conceptually very similar to the Jazz Module 2.0 (which are the Mains in the Dream Maker LCS system).

Now the Prismas generally have a bigger bottom end than the Jazz Module 2.0 does, but we can plug ports in them and in the effects speakers, and we can even reverse the polarity in one or both of the effects speakers.  In theory at least - I'm not sure Jim's tried it yet (the system is at his house now).   

If you're going to wire speakers in series, the impedance curves need to be similar otherwise they modulate one another's frequency response.   Of course series connection is not the only option. 

The added benefit would be a more realistic (more 3-D?) presentation, and better clarity.  The latter is somewhat counter-intuitive, but when the ear/brain system gets multiple "looks" at complex sounds via spectrally-correct reflections, it can do a better job of deciphering them.  Just yesterday Jim Romeyn was pointing out to me some spoken words on a live Allison Krause recording that he had never been able to understand until he heard the recording through the LCS system.   The idea of clarity improving with multiple "looks" comes from Floyd Toole.

Maybe you can talk Duke into putting together a test pair to send around to current AK Speaker Owners.  Keep them for a week or less and send to the next owner.  This could be an upgrade path for some.   

Hmmm... very interesting idea! 

Let me think about the mechanics a bit, and talk with Jim, but I like the idea.  You know, if there were any Abbey owners out there who wanted to give it a try, I could live with that too!

I think we'd ask people to help with the shipping, though not foot the entire cost, so that none of us would get beat up too bad by the shipping expense, but none of us would be getting a free ride either. 

Are you (any of you) aware of how other companies may have done something like this in the past?   You don't need to answer that yet... I'll probably start a separate thread before too long.

[James Romeyn]

In the case of LCS, the "multiple look" we get at the music is spectrally-correct, full range, high-intensity, and meets Toole's delay specification of 10ms.  We don't know of any other system in the world that fulfills Toole's criteria as does LCS. 

Other speakers provide musical "detail" via exotic cone materials, exotic crossover components, exotic and costly cabinet materials, etc.  Speakers can excel in "density" or musical detail, but seldom both. 

Duke's stand alone speakers always excelled in density, and I presume this is the case with Geddes' speakers too.  LCS only increases density of images and overall density, but simultaneously adds considerable levels of musical detail. 

The detail results from the "second look" mentioned above, which confirms the fundamental tone and harmonic overtone structure arriving earlier from the Main Speaker. 

That's why I posted at my website that Dream Maker LCS does not turn sour with less than ideal recordings, a common occurrence with other loudspeakers.  Other loudspeakers supply detail in a way that works better with superb recordings, but the leading edges of transients grate on the ear with less than ideal recordings.  We avoid all that by supplying the detail in an entirely different way.   

I predict those who audition LCS (even added to other speakers) will also notice huge increase in audibility of pitch centers throughout the entire range.  The difference increases between instruments with similar overtone structure. 

There will be huge jump in spatial qualities.  Maximum stage size increases in all three planes.  Image quality increases throughout: dimensions in three planes, atmosphere, consistency regardless of location in the stage even extreme corners, etc, etc, etc....all the stuff Tyson mentioned (it's much better in my treated room than RMAF).     

It's a cliche, but if the effect with other speakers is anything like Dream Maker, your music collection will sound new again.  You will hear musical events in the recordings you never heard.  In fact, they'll sound like new recordings.  That's been my experience so far, with every disc I played.   

I played dozens of times Allison Krause + Union Station Live SACD, disc 2, cut 1.  Never till DM LCS could I decipher what Allison says after she introduces dobro player Jerry Douglas. 

On the above SACD, Jerry is middle stage left, exactly where I saw him play live and where he plays on a Paul Simon Bluray.  You can clearly hear Allison turn her head around to our left (her right), away from the mic, to face Jerry, then she says, "you look dashing!"

[jtwrace]

Hmmm... very interesting idea! 

Let me think about the mechanics a bit, and talk with Jim, but I like the idea.  You know, if there were any Abbey owners out there who wanted to give it a try, I could live with that too!

Cool.

I think we'd ask people to help with the shipping, though not foot the entire cost, so that none of us would get beat up too bad by the shipping expense, but none of us would be getting a free ride either.

No, in all the tours that I've been involved in and have started, the customer is 100% responsible for all shipping costs.  This does weed out the people that just want something to do for giggles.  That's what RMAF and shows are for not this IMO as it takes away from someone who might really be interested which isn't good for AK. 

Are you (any of you) aware of how other companies may have done something like this in the past?   You don't need to answer that yet... I'll probably start a separate thread before too long.

Yes, companies here on AC do it as I said above.  I've never seen something like that that the costs are split for speakers.

[kgcdc]

I think we'd ask people to help with the shipping, though not foot the entire cost, so that none of us would get beat up too bad by the shipping expense, but none of us would be getting a free ride either. 

Are you (any of you) aware of how other companies may have done something like this in the past?   You don't need to answer that yet... I'll probably start a separate thread before too long.

Count me in, despite having Prismas and a Swarm. 

[Duke]

Thank you, jtwrace and kgcdc.

I will be out of town until next week but will start a thread on the subject after I get back. 

[jriggy]

I predict those who audition LCS (even added to other speakers) will also notice huge increase in audibility of pitch centers throughout the entire range.  The difference increases between instruments with similar overtone structure. 

Wait. The LCS can be added to any other 2 ch speaker system?

[James Romeyn]

Wait. The LCS can be added to any other 2 ch speaker system?

Variables in the so-called LCS "Main Speaker" directly determine suitability or lack of suitability for use with our LCS "Effects Speaker." 

I'd like to take this opportunity to respectfully state, for the record, that LCS "Late Ceiling Splash" architecture is patent pending.

Long version follows...

The sensitivity, impedance graph, and radiation pattern of any pre-existing loudspeaker directly affects its suitability or lack of suitability for LCS application.  (I'll be happily surprised if any other LCS application produces the results of this original Dream Maker LCS system.) 

Sensitivity/impedance graph: DM LCS "Main Speaker" and "Effects Speaker" have smooth impedance graphs above the bass range.  The ES is about +1dB higher sensitivity vs. the MS, which we found to be a good match (too much ES gain muddies the sound, too little minimizes the preferred effects.)  Depending on the amp (tube or SS), users can either connect the two speakers in series or parallel.  At RMAF the system was in series, presenting the ideal 16 Ohm load for the OTL (the little S-30 makes 45W into 16 Ohms).

Sensitivity or impedance mismatch with another "Main Speaker" is easily overcome by adding a separate amp with level control to drive the LCS "Effects Speaker."  Duke suggested something as affordable as a Parts Express $125 tower style Class D 40W desktop amp.  I love Earl Geddes' old reference, the 2003 Pioneer VSX-D912 HT receiver (last Pioneer HT receiver w/o HDMI...use pure analog bypass only, never use the DAC for music...about $125 on eBay). 

As a matter of fact, my current Dream Maker LCS employs two 912 receivers as integrated mono blocs, one drives the L ch, the other drivers the R ch (50W @ 16 Ohms, a load the 912 loves...it plays louder than I can stand with no audible distortion in a 3000cf room).

Radiation pattern: It's likely that the best potential match for another "Main Speaker" is a plain old mono pole.  I'd be happy to find out differently, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it till we find out otherwise. 

I want to repeat how happily surprised I am with the bass mode damping effects, apparently resulting from DM LCS' sum total fourteen bass sources (six active mid bass drivers, eight ports which can all run either open or air tight sealed).  This room has horrific modal effects, all or most of which appear to be well controlled. 

ASAP I intend to try inverting one Effects Speaker channel, as an additional tuning feature for a room with even worse bass modes than this room.  We suspect this would not affect mid-treble effects because of the ratio of wavelength vs. delay time compared to main direct signal. 

The port tuning (open vs. sealed) has such huge affect on overall performance up to about 1kHz that I can hardly describe the effect.   

[bernardo]

James-
This is the second time you have mentioned the quality of bass you are getting from the LCS system. Are you suggesting that your distributed subs may not be necessary with the 4-piece LCS system?

[James Romeyn]

James-
This is the second time you have mentioned the quality of bass you are getting from the LCS system. Are you suggesting that your distributed subs may not be necessary with the 4-piece LCS system?

I am really digging the sound and overall performance.  So far I don't miss the distributed array.  My prior mains, 2-way Dynaudio Esotec, were active high-pass crossed @ 80 Hz, the subs covering below 80 Hz.   

The distributed array is still in the room.  I'll eventually plug in the distributed array and listen to it crossed around 30 Hz (DM LCS full range). 

I'm happily surprised by DM LCS' quantity of bass mode damping effect, which is greater than I expected.

DM LCS pro sound drivers sound extremely lively, punchy, and dynamic. 

[jtwrace]

If I may....


I've heard the LCS system at RMAF so take it FWIW.  Bottom end was good but certainly not like what I'm used to with four subs (2x GedLee Bandpass & 2x Rythmik Servo) and my Abbeys.