[kingdeezie]

Pete,

I recently had a professional come and set up my room. It was one of the best things I have ever spent money on in this ridiculous hobby, and it was significantly cheaper then anything else in my system. Helped fix my sound tremendously.

See if local audio shops have someone who makes house calls, and then check that person's credentials.

Loading the room is of utmost importance. The loudspeaker and sitting position is critical for bass reproduction. What worked excellently in my room was measuring the length and width, and dividing the room into fourths by dividing by two, instead of by thirds.

For instance my room measured 218 inches long. This lead to measurements of 218, 109, 54,5, 27.25, 13.626, 6,8125, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. You can go on forever by then quartering the room. So, 3/4ths of 218 is 163.5, divided by two is 81.75, 40.875, etc, etc, etc. You can go on, and come up with dozens of potential placement options.

These are all points where you would position the source of the bass on the speaker from the wall behind them. For instance, my speakers are rear ported, and after extrapolating the possible points out, we landed on 61.3125 from the ports to the well behind the speakers.

You would do the exact same thing for the width as well. Measure, break it down, and position source of bass that far away from the sidewall.

Since the SS8's are not ported (right?) and use the side firing woofers, for the length measurement you would position the center of the side woofer at whatever calculated number you worked out. For the width, you would just go from the face of the side woofer closest to the sidewall.

Also, position your listening position in a similar manner away from the wall behind your head.

Be precise, 1/8th of an inch can matter. It is ridiculous, but true. 

Good luck man. Using this method helped my bass tremendously.

Heres to hoping you maximize the potential of those gorgeous speakers. 

Take care.

[PETE6737]

Hello All,
I find all of your input invaluable, and I appreciate it greatly. I have thought about professional help, but then I think about doing it myself with the aid of REW or  DSPeaker Dual core, etc

I have a 15 inch velodyne sub that I removed when I went to 2.0, and I think I will lug it back into the room.
Secondly, I am going to replace the  tube preamp with the old Bryston SP1.7 Prepro.
I am going to see if there is any change in sound with some free options, then I will entertain the idea of using a professional or buying a product to assist with final touches. I have a fair amount of  money tied up in bass traps in the corners from ASC, sound planks in the ceilings and fiberglas behind the fabric wrapped walls. ASC checked the room with a file I sent them. To be honest, I don't know where that went, but I did change up the room some since then, so a new check is in order.

The room in 13.5W X 24 on the longest side and 19 on the shorter side. The rear of the room is shortened up by the door. The speakers are about 6 feet from the real front wall not the false wall. There are traps flanking the screen. I have spent hours moving the speakers around, in-out etc to find the spot. I went through a bunch of masking tape doing this. I use a Rives Audio test disc and plotted the responses of the tones on a old school piece of graph paper. I know a higher tech process is necessary. I wonder if a simple box such as Dual Core can measure and correct without using subs.
   


Not seen in the above photo are the tube traps/ treatments in the rear corners(the rear speakers are no longer there)

Thank you all. I will take all this advice and measure the room, either on my own or professionally and I will hope that I can make a positive change. I will keep you posted

[audiotom]

Pete

Have you tried moving the comfy theatre chairs back
calculating the listening position
you may have a null where they are now

[jtwrace]

Pete

Have you tried moving the comfy theatre chairs back
calculating the listening position
you may have a null where they are now

That's why one should measure.

[OgOgilby]

Pete,


Audiotom is correct. From your pics it looks like the chairs may be near the center of the room (front to rear), which is generally a bad position due to nulls.

-Greg

[Mudslide]

Pete,

Please accept one more opinion.

I think you've done more than 99% of what others have done or even that needs to be done...especially if you've had your room measured before.  Small changes in the decor are not going to substantially alter your LF peaks and nulls.

A couple of years ago I joined a friend in a little A/B project.  (He of the room similar to yours...which by the way I misstated...it's 16'x21'.)  We wanted to compare the output of two similar JBL products, one of which had been touted as "much better" than the other.  They were the Studio S312's and the L890's (the supposed better one).  Both were 3-way designs.  They were virtually identical...except for one element...the L890's have two 8" bass drivers, the S312 had one 12" driver.  Theoretically they should move about equal amounts of air.  The L890 specs to 28 Hz and the S312 to 34 Hz, both +/-3 dB.  They sounded virtually like the same speakers...with the exception of the bass output.  Which got our bass output seal of approval?  The big 12" driver was much cleaner and the output more decisive.  The presence of the big driver IS audible and notable.

Now I don't know if anything from the above is applicable or matters one whit regarding your situation.  But it sure taught me a good lesson on driver size.  Even though it's a financial twitch to move to the SS12's...if your finances allow, I'd sure as heck go for it.

[JP78]

In my personal (specific to me) experience, I've found that there is no real substitute for moving air without larger drivers.

There's something immensely satisfying about having a great first octave foundation and it keeping up at larger SPL peaks or volumes.

I've had to downsize recently when I changed apartments so I ended up with a pair of VMPS RM2 - this was the smallest truly full-range speaker I could find in my budget. I won't give up the 12" woofers + 12" passive radiators after having had larger full-range speakers.

Finances are very personal, but if the cost of upgrading to the 12's won't keep you up at night then I'd pull the trigger. Again, this is just one man's opinion.

Best,

 

[JonnyFive]

The last two posts are in favor of bigger bass drivers.  Wouldn't this point towards dedicated subwoofers and not the SS12s?  You could go to 13", 15", 18" drivers AND have placement options since they aren't co-located with your mids/tweeter in the SS12 cabinet. 

[Saturn94]

The last two posts are in favor of bigger bass drivers.  Wouldn't this point towards dedicated subwoofers and not the SS12s?  You could go to 13", 15", 18" drivers AND have placement options since they aren't co-located with your mids/tweeter in the SS12 cabinet.

+1

[Phil A]

I'll be a couple hours or so south of you in 6 months give or take.  If you're not in a rush and both I and my stuff survive the move (I'm moving most of the audio stuff probably starting in a few months), I could bring over my one third octave RTA and do a reading for you.

[Mudslide]

The last two posts are in favor of bigger bass drivers.  Wouldn't this point towards dedicated subwoofers and not the SS12s?  You could go to 13", 15", 18" drivers AND have placement options since they aren't co-located with your mids/tweeter in the SS12 cabinet.

Well....sort of.  As I also posted earlier, I have yet to hear a system including subwoofers that perfectly integrated the subs with the rest of the speakers.  With really diligent, systematic external EQ'ing and proper equipment, yes, it can be done.  Remember, the subs and other speakers aren't 'tuned' to each other for a truly flat response such as you would find in quality speaker designer crossovers...where time and frequency domains are accounted for.  And driver parameters and dynamics also play an important part in a seamless production of audio from LF to HF.  I'm not sure mix and match subs and speakers can offer that.

At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.   

[Austin08]

Well....sort of.  As I also posted earlier, I have yet to hear a system including subwoofers that perfectly integrated the subs with the rest of the speakers.  With really diligent, systematic external EQ'ing and proper equipment, yes, it can be done.  Remember, the subs and other speakers aren't 'tuned' to each other for a truly flat response such as you would find in quality speaker designer crossovers...where time and frequency domains are accounted for.  And driver parameters and dynamics also play an important part in a seamless production of audio from LF to HF.  I'm not sure mix and match subs and speakers can offer that.

At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.   

Agree, Even with the help of dual core I, sometime, feel My system sound better of without subs. Good thing is with dual core, I have an option of turn my subs on or off depend on my mood without further adj or readjustment.

[JP78]

The last two posts are in favor of bigger bass drivers.  Wouldn't this point towards dedicated subwoofers and not the SS12s?  You could go to 13", 15", 18" drivers AND have placement options since they aren't co-located with your mids/tweeter in the SS12 cabinet.

Since I'm one of the mentioned, I figure I may as well clarify. I don't think there's anything wrong with multiple subs (2 or more) with mains.  In my case I simply don't have the space/budget/flexibility to consider the option of multiple subs, and the OP didn't throw that option out there in his question. 

That being said, I've been lucky enough to hear systems with flawless sub integration to mains, and as Mudslide nodded to the owners had taken great care in both knowledge and execution with crossover/DSP, placement and measurements to achieve their respective synergistic blends. Like most things in life, there are multiple ways to arrive to a desired solution.

Best,

[PETE6737]

Update:
 I replaced the tube preamp with my old Bryston sp1.7 prepro, using the 2 channel bypass only. I actually like what the solid state prepro did to the sound. I feel like some bass came back and the highs were a tad airier. Anyway I will keep this and move to the room acoustics/measuring /speaker placement when time permits. I have put bigger speakers on the back burner. Phil A, let me know when you are passing through and we can RTA room if I haven't gotten to it. I'll buy you dinner at a great local restaurant

[Phil A]

Update:
 I replaced the tube preamp with my old Bryston sp1.7 prepro, using the 2 channel bypass only. I actually like what the solid state prepro did to the sound. I feel like some bass came back and the highs were a tad airier. Anyway I will keep this and move to the room acoustics/measuring when time permits. I have put bigger speakers on the back burner. Phil A, let me know when you are passing through and we can RTA room if I haven't gotten to it. I'll buy you dinner at a great local restaurant

Pete, thanks.  Most of the stuff will still be in VA for months at least.  I will be down that way next week and driving back past you on the morning (will get an early as possible start as it is an 880 mile drive) of Sept. 7 - can't spend tons of time but if you're around it may help a bit).  Won't have the real RTA (kind of sharing the FL house sort of with the builder for another few months) but if you let me know within a few days I have the RTA built into the iPhone and a disc of pink noise (and one of test tones too).  Obviously the microphone in the iPhone is not the equivalent of a couple of hundred dollar calibrated one that comes with the RTA but it can give a rough idea of problems.  Let me know before I pack early next week.  Not a big deal to throw a couple of discs in the suitcase.

[Phil A]

FYI, I use to have an SP1.7 and a 14BSST in the main system (now have a Modwright LS36.5DM and KWA150 SE).  I actually started with the LS36.5DM first with the 14BSST.  Made a good combo (but the Modwright is not what I would call the usual stereotypical tubey sound in a preamp at all) but the Modwright amp works better with it and drives my Thiel 3.7s better.  I also picked up an Odyssey Candela tube preamp that was used as a demo at the Capital Audiofest in late July (did not intend to buy with the move but just narrow down stuff a bit and Klaus is a good sales guy).  I'm breaking in some Synergy HiFi tubes (highly recommended if they make the tubes your preamp uses and they are quite reasonable) in the Odyssey preamp with an old Bryston 3BST in the secondary basement system now and it sounds really good with 20 year old B&W P6 speakers (which I'd like to sell and get a similar thin tower with a Raal tweeter for a spare bedroom system - I already bought a pair of Ohm Micro Walsh Talls for another spare bedroom locally in April  that are sitting in the closet down there for now).

[PETE6737]

Phil A
I appreciate the offer. I'm out if town the next two weekends but I'll hold out for your next trip down. I am putting off any major improvements to the theater for a little while. If I get a promotion at work, I'd like to get the soundscape 8 center and M7surrounds. I miss surround music mostly. Keep me posted with your travels in Florida. Thanks, Pete

[Ern Dog]

Pete-  Any updates?  Did you guys RTA your room?