[Dentdog]

I like this thread. It explores many of the things being considered..
How about bi-amping vertically the SS8s with the Rythmics. Jim Smith favors vertical for cohesiveness. Have mercy,  just a newbie here.

[PETE6737]

Thanks for the input. Currently I have a2.0 setup. I don't really miss 5.1 in the rare times I watch movies in the room. The room has morphed into a primarily audio room 90 percent of the time. The projector hardly gets any use. So now I have a great2.0 system with a Bryston 14B amp and Caryaudio slp 03 tube preamp.  But there are times with certain music that I would like more low end. Upgrading to ss12s seems truly excessive but adding a pair of subs may be an option. I moved up from a pair of B&W 803s to the SS8s for a fuller range speaker because I wanted better low end from a full range speaker in 2 channel mode. I feel like if I just add subs to the ss8s, I might as well kept the 803s and added subs to them.  I will pick Jim's brain next week to help me decide. Thanks to all, Pete

[DRSmith]

ohh… Pete… you've been bitten by the most acute of all bugs, the audiophile-bottomless-euphoneous bug.  As your Dr, the only thing that will end it is buying a Bose home theater system…      sure to end the enjoyment of all music though as a side effect. 

[jtwrace]

I feel like if I just add subs to the ss8s, I might as well kept the 803s and added subs to them.

So you don't think there is much sonic difference between the two?

[PETE6737]

So you don't think there is much sonic difference between the two?

OK. Yes there ARE sonic differences in the 803s and SS8's. Taking the extra low end out of the equation, the 803s' highs were brighter and mid bass was bloated and the centered image sounded more "in your face"or in front of the speakers than the SS8s to me.

The ss8s are sonically more evenly refined throughout the range. The imaging is better, the wide soundstage super impressive, the center image is not as in your face and sounds about even with the speakers. That presentation needed some getting used to, but now it's a non issue.

What I meant to say in the last post was that, yes, the 803's had sonic shortcomings, that mostly presented themselves while I listened to two channel: Namely the lack of low end energy and air movement and the bloated mid bass( which could have been resolved by adding subs) The other characteristics did not seem to present themslves as negative until I heard the SS8s. So, if I merely added two subs to my old system, I probably would not have had any issues, since I had not heard the differences with the SS8s. Considering the substantial financial diiference between adding a sub or two or buying the SS8s...now with the possiblility of buying a couple of subs ANYWAY...I may have been better off with monitors and subs than to go with such a big speaker that I may need a sub or two for, anyway..

In my mind, I bought such a large expensive speaker to give me the low end energy from only two speakers in a two channel system. An while the SS8 is an excellent performer, I suspect there are many owners out there using them with a sub, which is what in theory, I was trying to avoid. I love the Salk speakers, the company and Jim the person, is about as top notch as you can get, so I am entertaining the idea of going deeper into my relationship with Salk with SS12s, if this will likely get me to where I'd like to be in my system, which is the whole premise for the original post, to get ideas from all of you as to my next move.

I do appreciate all the replies. Many of you have much more knowledge than me in this area. SS8s with subs/room correction of some type, or SS12s as is.....    JIm will be getting a call from me next week.

and yes, DRSmith, I'm infected big time with the bug!

[Nuance]

For home theater always use subs (yup, subs with a 's), but for music I'd think the SS8's should cut it.  IMO jtwrace gave the best advice in advising you to measure your room.  Perhaps you have a large null and that is what's causing the missing bass weight.  There's only one way to find out...

[chargedmr2]

I would like to second what Nuance and jtwrace have said: measure your room.  This is absolutely critical for understanding what's happening in the low frequency department.  I recommend that you stop thinking about speaker options entirely (seriously, set this issue aside 100 percent), and begin to learn about measuring your room. 

If you think about it, you already own speakers that put out substantial SPL down to fairly low frequencies.  Yet, something seems to be missing.  As Nuance said, this may be a null that you are experiencing.  If so, upgrading to new speakers and placing them in the same location will likely produce a very similar null. 

Bottom line is that without measuring, you're missing key information needed to make this decision.  It's just not worth remaining in the dark when making upgrades like this. 

Good luck.

[Austin08]

I would like to second what Nuance and jtwrace have said: measure your room.  This is absolutely critical for understanding what's happening in the low frequency department.  I recommend that you stop thinking about speaker options entirely (seriously, set this issue aside 100 percent), and begin to learn about measuring your room. 

If you think about it, you already own speakers that put out substantial SPL down to fairly low frequencies.  Yet, something seems to be missing.  As Nuance said, this may be a null that you are experiencing.  If so, upgrading to new speakers and placing them in the same location will likely produce a very similar null. 

Bottom line is that without measuring, you're missing key information needed to make this decision.  It's just not worth remaining in the dark when making upgrades like this. 

Good luck.

Agree with you and Nuance. My room is s"ck, I can not really move my speaker anywhere else and can only do so much with passive treatment since this room is also my living room.  So I decided to measure my room acoustic before doing anything else. After measured, I decided the only easy option to go is dual core and two big subs.(I really want 4 subs but do not know where to put them).  The dual Rythmik subs really help to smooth thing out a bit and the dual core knock all the peaks down. (6db-8db higher than the rest from 20hz to 35hz). I still have some dips at 60hz and 80 hz that I only want to boost them up by 3db. (Still at least 7db to 9db lower compare to the rest but the gap is small, so I am not worry about that much). I am still toying with the dual core and only run it up to 125hz but so far I am very happy with the result. (I will run the DC full range when I am feel I need to do it). For now, I believe this combination give me the best bass that I have heard so far. I don't know how much better the SS12 is in lower region but for a cheaper option the dual core+ subs+ SS8 is hard to beat.

[PETE6737]

I would like to second what Nuance and jtwrace have said: measure your room.  This is absolutely critical for understanding what's happening in the low frequency department.  I recommend that you stop thinking about speaker options entirely (seriously, set this issue aside 100 percent), and begin to learn about measuring your room. 

If you think about it, you already own speakers that put out substantial SPL down to fairly low frequencies.  Yet, something seems to be missing.  As Nuance said, this may be a null that you are experiencing.  If so, upgrading to new speakers and placing them in the same location will likely produce a very similar null. 

Bottom line is that without measuring, you're missing key information needed to make this decision.  It's just not worth remaining in the dark when making upgrades like this. 

Good luck.

Ok, I have solicited advice and I have recieved it. I will check the room before making any further cash outlay in the room. It makes sense, but I have to brush up on it. I tried a few years ago with a soundcard and REW, but my old computer fought me every step of the way, then I had to buy a USB hub because the laptop couldnt power all the stuff...etc Bottom line is that I could not even get a reading...I will now slow down and work on room measurement and I will get back to you. Thanks again for the advice, Pete

[chargedmr2]

Pete,

Things have become much less complicated in the world of REW measuring:
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umik.html

I haven't used this easier method, because it wasn't around when I bought my gear, but this is what I would do now.  I think you will find it much less of a hassle and worth the investment. 

[DRSmith]

Pete, it looks like you got some top notch advice… have fun!  Oh, I hope you don't have to upgrade your computer as well.   There are smart guys on this forum.   

[PMAT]

Try this. Get a strong helper. Sit in your listening spot and have your helper move the speakers in a grid of masking tape. Back 4 inches, out four, back 6 out 6, forward and in. you get the picture. in 30 minutes you can hear a lot without purchasing anything. Use your remote to play something you know should kick ass over and over. Eight inches can change your life. 

[chargedmr2]

PMAT - I think this is a good suggestion and can yield some improvements without any cost, as you mention.  Just keep in mind that you need something that captures the full frequency range that you are concerned with.  I would consider downloading (and burning to CD) a frequency sweep instead of listening to music.  When you play it, you will certainly be able to hear the worse of the peaks, dips, and nulls without a mic (the decibels will be audibly up and down across the range).  Just keep the track on repeat and try to smooth things out.  I would recommend a very high end subwoofer and equalizer if you really want to smooth out the bass and extend down lower than the SS8s, but as a two channel system, I also understand the hesitation to go this route. 

[JonnyFive]

http://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

$95 shipped from overseas.  It's pretty much plug-and-measure with REW, so shouldn't be too much headache for you!

[oneinthepipe]

petejr.:

Larger drivers, other variables being consistent, push more air, and more easily.  Multiple subs reduce the likelihood of room nodes and allow individual subs to played with lower volume.  Although the SS8 play very low, the subs' frequency range would be limited to 60hz, 70hz, or 80hz, for example, and below, while the SS8 crossover point is higher, I believe.   Jeff Bagby designed a very musical sub, with a 15" driver and (2) 15" passive radiators, for me.  I built (4) subwoofers and use (2) Velodyne SMS-1 crossovers to enable playing the subs in stereo.  The improvement in the sound from my HT2-TL was remarkable, notwithstanding the very smooth, well-defined, and deep, yet subtle bass from the subs (which can shake my home if I wish). 

Perhaps you can borrow or otherwise audition a sub or subs in your system.   Jim makes excellent subwoofers, and they will match your speakers.

Before, that, however, I concur with others that you should ensure that your speakers are correctly placed.  The other issue to consider is room treatment.  While this may seem counter-intuitive, as low-frequency acoustic absorption is increased, the bass will become deeper, flatter, and more defined, and the midrange will become clearer.  "You can't be too rich or have too much rigid fiberglass."

[avahifi]

You guys might know that both Dennis Murphy, the crossover designer, and Jim use AVA amplifiers.  At consumer shows we get awesome bass with SS8s and an AVA Fet Valve 600r power amp.

I wonder what power amps those who feel not adequate bass with SS8s might be using.

Frank Van Alstine

[strat95]

I would agree that amps will drastically affect bass.  When I upgraded my AVA Fet Valve to the 400R that was the first thing I noticed.  It was the biggest difference I ever heard in my system.  But the improvement was across the board, not just in the bass.

Can you tell us the dimensions of your room and the position of the speakers in the room, measuring from center of tweeter to side walls and from front baffle to front wall?

TV

[PMAT]

I haven't heard your Fet 600 Frank but it seems the 14b is quite studly. I would think that unless that room is huge either amp should get the bass out of those SS8's. It could very well be placement or even the Cary or both. From my experience with twin eights of that caliber on each side, his speakers should easily pressurize that room for music. Some people do prefer unnaturally high bass output though.

[Austin08]

.......From my experience with twin eights of that caliber on each side, his speakers should easily pressurize that room for music....

Agree, the SS8 bass is excellent even though my room is nothing compare to the OP's room. The only time when I feel the need of subs is watching blu ray concert or listening to multichannel dsd. I know we are talking about 2channel listening here but I found out that after adding the dual core and dual subs, the bass sure has a bit more weight and punch even in 2 channel. On top of that, I have an easy option of turning the subs on or off depend on my listening materials and my mood at that time. So, it is an expensive option but since I already have a dual subs on hand ( my system is hybrid HT/2channel system) all I need is to buy the dual core to try out. Lucky for me, thing work out the way I want it and it is really a cheap and quick fix.

 Now back to the topic, I think the OP was right when he decide to measure his room acoustic. Otherwise, it is just like shooting in the dark.

[OgOgilby]

Pete,

Maybe I missed it - how big is your room?

Since the 14B SST is 900 watts per channel into 4 ohms, your amp certainly shouldn't be the problem - unless it isn't working correctly. As Frank would say, I get "awesome bass" with my 14B SST² and SoundScape 8 combo. I did use REW for speaker positioning. The main part of my room is 17x23x8. I was using a JL Audio F112 sub and Velodyne SMS-1 with my HT2 TL's in a 5.1 setup before upgrading to the SS8's.

Our room has to work as both a 2 channel and HT setup. My wife and I don't watch that many movies, but we were both blown away with the bass when we were watching the latest Batman. Easily the most powerful bass I have heard in our room. It was only after the movie was over that I realized I had turned off the sub and the SMS-1 shortly after the SoundScapes arrived, and hadn't turned it back on.

In fact, I just sold my JL Audio F112 sub and Velodyne SMS-1 - we are that happy with the bass from the SoundScape 8's. For us, the SS8's bass is more than enough for 2 channel listening and better than crossing over to a single 12" sub for HT. I'm sure multiple subs would be better for HT, but my wife and I are very happy with our current setup and I have no desire to add subs to the mix for the occasional movie. Of course my wife may be biased towards the SS8's since she doesn't have to look at subs...

Like others have stated, try measuring the room, or manually check you speaker positioning using a grid while playing something with lots of bass. This is probably obvious, but if you are using a receiver preamp for HT, check that the SS8's are being used as full range speakers.

-Greg