NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene

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Folsom

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #120 on: 26 Oct 2013, 08:16 pm »
Cab, have you watched the videos drom ESS talking about how the type of distortion mattered more than how low it was below the noise floor, for whatever reason, to the human ear?

I have only found support for this based on everything I read and test. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

There for I conclude that the typical noise from a not tube no matter how small, should be reduced or changed as much as possible.


And trust me, I'd love to know why since it doesn't make sense given what we know about audible sound levels.


cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #121 on: 26 Oct 2013, 08:58 pm »
Are you saying the ncore is a digital device?

Folsom

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #122 on: 26 Oct 2013, 09:14 pm »
It's a switching device. I think digital vs analog, but its actually tube vs not. Switchers require an oupit filter because the device operates with high frequencies above the music spectrum. It's not a pleasant distortion to the music like tubes.

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #123 on: 26 Oct 2013, 09:29 pm »
First you were talking about ESS and digital arifacts/distortion types. Then you edited it to say tubes vs. analog....

Your original argument was that there were distortions identified by ESS in digital that were audible despite not being measurable. So I asked if you thought the ncore was a digital device. It's not.

Now you are talking about ss versus tube distortion spectra. Tubes are often said to soft clip-producing even, rather than odd harmonics that most solid state amps produce...This is only relevant in clipping situations. I am not talking about clipping situations.

The output filter removes the carrier residual.  I think you need to do a little more research into class d.

OzarkTom

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #124 on: 26 Oct 2013, 09:48 pm »


First show us some measurements before and after the cap switch. Then prove any objective improvements are actually audible.

So do you say that all amps will same exactly alike if only they would get their distortion specs exactly the same as Bruno's?

Folsom

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #125 on: 26 Oct 2013, 09:50 pm »
The ESS example was for after conversion to analog. The point is still the same, the type of noise matters, even at levels below what we consider audible.

The phenminon isn't constrained to digital specifically. Also tubes are very different even not clipping. All devices create some distortion/noise. The Wikipedia article on tubes is pretty extensive these days, have a look.

The LC circuit doesn't remove 100% of what the switching device adds to the music. That's why "everybody" (the people that have tried the mod) believes to hear something, a reduction in something that the noise caused or was. If the noise was from tubes they may not care; but the point remains it's the type, not the level, that can exlain "inaudible" differences in taste.


cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #126 on: 26 Oct 2013, 09:55 pm »
So you are saying that while the measured distortion from the ncore is below the noise floor of the measuring equipment and the threshold of human hearing, there is some type of residual distortion, not measured, made by the caps, that is audible? And that by changing caps, this heretofore unmeasured distortion is now reduced to a level where it is no longer audible? Pardon my skepticism.....what might this distortion be called and can you explain why we can't measure it or why it doesn't show up in any of the measurements done by Hypex?

I have seen nothing that proves noise spectra below the threshold of hearing is audible in general, and class d spectra, in particular. Isn't that what "threshold of hearing" means?

Instead of arguing the point with me, as I really don't matter, why don't you ask Bruno his opinion. He is usually very open and willing to discuss his work and these types of topics. While you are at it, you can ask him what he thinks of these cap mods.

jtwrace

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #127 on: 26 Oct 2013, 09:56 pm »
Instead of arguing the point with me, as I really don't matter, why don't you ask Bruno his opinion. He is usually very open and willing to discuss his work and these types of topics. While you are at it, you can ask him what he thinks of these cap mods.
Great idea and please report back here with the answer. 

Regnad

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #128 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:05 pm »
I do find it a bit strange that mods almost aways improve the sound and equipment only burns-in until it is perfect, not more.

Folsom

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #129 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:07 pm »
No I'm not saying any thing about capacitors creating noise/distortion. That doesn't make sense.

The capacitors are part of a filter. I am saying due to how-no-one-knows-low-noise-effects any improvement in the filter is positive to our ears. If what was being filtered was a different type, we perhaps wouldn't notice the change.

I'd love to hear from Bruno so long as he tries the mod.

jtwrace

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #130 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:10 pm »
[size=78%]I'd love to hear from Bruno so long as he tries the mod.[/size]
Maybe he has.  Ask. 

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #131 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:12 pm »
No I'm not saying any thing about capacitors creating noise/distortion. That doesn't make sense.

The capacitors are part of a filter. I am saying due to how-no-one-knows-low-noise-effects any improvement in the filter is positive to our ears. If what was being filtered was a different type, we perhaps wouldn't notice the change.

I'd love to hear from Bruno so long as he tries the mod.

It makes no sense that a filter already outputting a signal with measured distortion below human hearing now outputting distortion even farther below human hearing can make an audible difference. Below audibility is below audibility.

My advice was for you to contact Bruno and posit this theory and mod to him. See what he thinks. You can reach him via hypex.

OzarkTom

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #132 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:29 pm »
Or if the mod sounds better to your ears, who cares what anyone else thinks?

So are we back ro the 70's again where low distortion only matters? I remember being young and naive back then and falling for this hype.

Never again.

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #133 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:30 pm »
Or if the mod sounds better to your ears, who cares what anyone else thinks?

So are we back ro the 70's again where low distortion only matters? I remember being young and naive back then and falling for this hype.

Never again.

You've missed the entire point of the discussion.

Folsom

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #134 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:34 pm »
No one said the affects of inaudible things exerted with audible ones are inaudible. We don't understand it, but it seems to happen.

Also our measurement for audible is based on detection, but given the massive amount of information (terabytes) we might hear and not know it. It's possible maybe mood changes could be detected or something, even when the person can't tell you they hear a noise.

*Scotty*

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #135 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:38 pm »
Which is the more important criteria to base a decision to buy an amp on? How the amp measures or how the amp sounds?
While the Ncore 400 was designed to be a "neutral" sounding amplifier, neutrality is only a good starting point. Once this goal has been achieved additional performance parameters need to addressed, such as the preservation of dynamic contrast, the height, width and depth of the sound-stage, depth layering within the sound-stage, three dimensionality of the sound-stage,(ie does the amplifier image in front of the plane of the speakers as well behind the speakers). The foregoing was obviously an incomplete list of subjective amplifier characteristics.
 Any or all of the above subjective parameters can be affected by the choice of passive parts as well as the active circuit design. To debate the audibility of a change in the sound of the amplifier based whether there was a change in a measurement is rather pointless. Especially considering that the amplifier was primarily designed to meet a subjective goal based on how it sounded to the designer..
The hobby is listening to music, an activity based on subjective experience, not reading objective specifications.
If one argues that a certain level of measured distortion THD, IM or what ever is well below the threshold of audibility and therefore could not impact what is heard, then you are very close to arguing that all amplifiers measuring below .05%THD will sound the same. Shades of  StereoReview and Julian Hirsch.
Scotty

OzarkTom

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #136 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:42 pm »
You've missed the entire point of the discussion.

Not really. Months ago I asked you how your low distortion figures translate into the quality of sound stage and transparency. I have heard other neutral amps that has more of those features in my system. But maybe the right mod can improve that on the Ncores.

Isn't that is what this is all about?

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #137 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:50 pm »
No one said the affects of inaudible things exerted with audible ones are inaudible. We don't understand it, but it seems to happen.

Also our measurement for audible is based on detection, but given the massive amount of information (terabytes) we might hear and not know it. It's possible maybe mood changes could be detected or something, even when the person can't tell you they hear a noise.

Sorry, but I really can't make heads nor tails of what you are saying here....

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #138 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:51 pm »
Which is the more important criteria to base a decision to buy an amp on? How the amp measures or how the amp sounds?
While the Ncore 400 was designed to be a "neutral" sounding amplifier, neutrality is only a good starting point. Once this goal has been achieved additional performance parameters need to addressed, such as the preservation of dynamic contrast, the height, width and depth of the sound-stage, depth layering within the sound-stage, three dimensionality of the sound-stage,(ie does the amplifier image in front of the plane of the speakers as well behind the speakers). The foregoing was obviously an incomplete list of subjective amplifier characteristics.
 Any or all of the above subjective parameters can be affected by the choice of passive parts as well as the active circuit design. To debate the audibility of a change in the sound of the amplifier based whether there was a change in a measurement is rather pointless. Especially considering that the amplifier was primarily designed to meet a subjective goal based on how it sounded to the designer..
The hobby is listening to music, an activity based on subjective experience, not reading objective specifications.
If one argues that a certain level of measured distortion THD, IM or what ever is well below the threshold of audibility and therefore could not impact what is heard, then you are very close to arguing that all amplifiers measuring below .05%THD will sound the same. Shades of  StereoReview and Julian Hirsch.
Scotty

Debating subjective parameters is even more pointless.

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #139 on: 26 Oct 2013, 10:52 pm »
Not really. Months ago I asked you how your low distortion figures translate into the quality of sound stage and transparency. I have heard other neutral amps that has more of those features in my system. But maybe the right mod can improve that on the Ncores.

Isn't that is what this is all about?

No, that's not what this is all about.