[Carlman]

I hear so often how good something is 'for the price'.  I then notice that this supposedly high-value item is in the thousands.  So, the more I hear it, the more I realize it means nothing.  If a piece of audio gear costs over a thousand dollars, it should sound very good.  If it's in the multi-thousand dollar range, like 10,k for a cd player, then it should be a benchmark in sound quality and customer service.  
(In my opinion, at 10,k it should be voiced to the customer's ear, like a custom job.  This is not the case, though...)

So, if a $2,000 product sounds good 'for the price'.  Does it best something that costs $2,001... or $3,k... $10,k?  That's really the trick.  Your mind has now determined the value without reference.  Hmm.

So, if product A is 2,k and sounds excellent, for the price... and the competing higher priced product isn't mentioned, is this just puffery?  (Puffery: Flattering, often exaggerated praise and publicity, especially when used for promotional purposes.)
(e.g. I once sold chocolate for the Cub Scouts... it was labeled 'The Worlds Finest' chocolate.  However, it was not actually the finest chocolate in all of the world.  It's a form of puffery since it's an over-inflated claim that isn't taken seriously. )

I often wonder where I can find high-priced gear that is awful at thousands of dollars.... that was 'blown away' by gear that costs less. (but how much less? )

And another thing... whenever someone tells me some gear 'blows away' something else, I cringe... knowing that's near impossible.... 'for the price'..  'Blows away' .... I always get a kick out of hearing that.

Well, that's off my chest... I don't mean any personal attack by this to anyone.. just getting tired of hearing it... and sharing my awareness that its impact isn't what it used to be.

[Hantra]

And another thing... whenever someone tells me some gear 'blows away' something else, I cringe... knowing that's near impossible.... 'for the price'..  'Blows away' .... I always get a kick out of hearing that.

Agreed.  

The thing that floors me is when I see a "credible" review magazine say that.  Right on the cover many times there is "BEST EVER", or "BEST IN THE WORLD".  This is quite ridiculous.  

I think what turns me off about people saying something is a world-beater is the influx of gear lately with a perceived high value that sounds decent.  I have heard a person tell me that an unmodded Carver ZR-1600 sounds better than a HALCRO.  Well, I have heard both, and I can only assume this person is on psychotropic drugs, AND has a vested interest in Carver, AND needs a complete physical including hearing tests.

The thing is, it is great that some good stuff is coming down the pipe, and that the gap between ultra high-end SOTA, and great playback is getting smaller by the week.  But this overzealous blabbing does more harm than good IMO.  

Later,

B

[nathanm]

I think it would be a great service to everyone if the price of audio gear was kept a closely guarded secret to both listeners and reviewers until the person had listened to enough stuff to form a real solid idea of what sounded good and what didn't.  The knowledge of those numbers assigned to a certain piece of gear makes a truly honest and unbiased opinion of the performance nearly impossible.  Way too much emphasis is given to price.  That information should be hidden for as long as possible.  It'd be great to pick up a hifi magazine and read the reviews without the reviewers or readers having any idea what the price was.  Then like at the end of the year release a list of what cost what and see if there is any kind of linear scale between subjective opinion of sound and price.  I feel that you can spend tons of money and still be limited by your acoustics and placement.  That is what I have found in my own systems at least.  It seems like throwing money at it might get you some awesome visuals, admiration for the ergonomics and construction of the device, but not necessarily an ecstatic musical experience.  That still seems to be determined by the most simple and inexpensive factors: the music you play and your own mood and state of mind.

[_scotty_]

This is a hobby that requires intelligence and insight applied to designing
a better mousetrap if progress towards a more accurate recreation of reality in your listening room is to be achieved. Unfortunately increasing
the dollars spent on a product to hopefully more closely approach the goal does not guarantee that you have purchased the necessary brainpower applied to solving the problem. The short version, money spent does not
equal brains purchased. In almost any other hobby more money spent equals a bigger better performing end result. Audio on the other hand is a crapshoot no matter how much you spend. Caveat Emptor!

[srclose]

It's interesting that scientific research requires blind interpretation when the observation could affect the outcome, and research would never make it to publication without the necessary precautions.  But in audio, the equipment is placed under a spotlight and all the promotional materials are memorized before the 'scientific' A/B evaluation.  I've come to put 10 times the weight on opinions from a forum like AudioCircle than the primary audio publications.

[TheChairGuy]

Hell ya' Carl, I got similar leanings  

I always list the cost that I paid for the item, or the street price and often the list price to let anyone out there know if the sound that I am reporting on to be worthy of their dollars or not.

'For the price', 'Best Value' etc is different for everyone at different times of your financial reality.

I could afford a lot of nice gear, but personally get 'cheaped-out' when stuff goes above $1000.00 or cables above $200.00.  

That's just my line-in-the-sand, tho, and I have broken it (with some internal displeasure a few times now).  I went 4x over that for my front end, in total, but I thought it was good value.  I went over that amount for the BPT, and while I am happy with it, I am not sure it was worth THAT much.  I'm not sure at what price I would be ecstatic with the BPT, and by no means are Chris' designs bad value, but it was $1400 for a box and power cord that cleans electricity of 'noise', essentially.

I have to admit, part of my cheapness, is that I travel to China often and know the great big (non-audio) hunks of product I get very cheaply.  $50 an hour US vs. $1 a day in China adds considerably to costs.

[Carlman]

My intention was to gripe about the (over)use and banality of the term 'for the price' (and 'blows away') in audiospeak.  I talked to a guy yesterday who told me that a DIY DAC 'blew away' a Mark Levinson $5500 dac.  What he said may have some merit, it may not.  I don't know.  However, the phrase irked me and made me instantly suspect this claim.

I read in many forums all the time about how good something is... especially 'for the price' and then they don't make any comparison to give that statement validity.  

I have a similar monetary line in the sand to theChairGuy.  And if I were making a point about value, I'd say the Chair Guy makes excellent chairs, for the price!     However, I really think he's underpriced... but, that's not what I intended this thread to be about.  

I just think using terms like 'for the price' and 'blew away' are getting way over used in hifi forums and in person.  It's almost like hearing someone spew brochure-knowledge as their own and you just read it before you met them.

I hope I haven't upset anyone.  I'm not trying to change the way people say things... but, to encourage a little more thought into what it means...   (oh, and of course, to hear myself talk. )

[Hantra]

$50 an hour US vs. $1 a day in China adds considerably to costs.

Well some there are actually up to $3.75 per day!  That's the ultra-high paying manufacturing jobs.  Meanwhile, they are the number ONE market for the $200,000 USD BMW 760Li.  Someone there is making money.  

Sorry, you touched on a nerve that has been throbbing for a few days:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1176369/posts

[TheChairGuy]

Actually Hantra, you're right and I shoulda' thought more before writing; I think the average wage for a factory worker in So. China (Guangdong Province) is about $1200.00 yearly or $3.75 per day.

A few things should be considered, however, about this wage:  factory workers are often housed for free by the factory, often fed 3 good meals a day and medicine, as PR. China is Socialist, is gratis and paid for by all for the 'collective' good.  Now, think for a moment, if your lodging was handled, meals and health insurance too...how much would you need to make to sustain yourself  Maybe no audiophile goodies, BMW's, vacations to DisneyWorld, Chicken Stir Fry at The Cheescake Factory or Charles Schwab online trading, but you'd have a life.  In fact, most of those workers typically send hundreds back home to more impoverished family members in far Western inland China.  Yes, they actually save something from the $1200 yearly to send back home   No credit cards do wonderful things for your savings.

Keep in mind that up until the last 5 years, a factory worker probably made no more than half this amount.

Korea was once in the same position 20 years ago, and factory workers there now make a bit over half of what US workers make.  It takes time to reach parity, but it'll come in the next 10-20 years.

In the meantime, calm those nerves..it's just the implacable reality of market forces at work; nothing too sinister in my view.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

[Hantra]

In the meantime, calm those nerves..it's just the implacable reality of market forces at work; nothing too sinister in my view.

I agree. . .  I just read too much news.  The market is a good thing.  But when we are dealing with a situation where the majority of your manufacturing is going to a country that has a history of doing stupid things, it makes me think back to WWII.  

The Germans clearly had superior engineering at the time when it comes to hardware, but the fact is, we could turn it out so fast, and in such quantity, we were okay.  What happens when we have no capacity to turn out the hardware, and we are up against China?

Later,

B

[Tyson]

I don't think we will be "up against china" anytime soon.  Capitalism is a virus that is invading and taking over, and the longer it is embraced, the more likely China is better off economically, the more likely China and the "West" will get along just fine.  In the end, China will find out that Capitalism and the freedoms it entails cannot be contained to only the "economic" realm while communism holds sway over the "political" realm.  But by that time it will be too late for the communists.

[Hantra]

Capitalism is a virus that is invading and taking over, and the longer it is embraced, the more likely China is better off economically, the more likely China and the "West" will get along just fine.

You know, I agree with that.  This is one of the major reasons I support free trade.  But China is racing towards superpower status.  With the booming economy, and the insane weapons buildup we have seen from them in the past ten years, they show no signs of slowing down.  

Keep in mind these bastards kept a reconnaisance plane of ours for months, and shipped it back to us in pieces.  They are building aircraft carrier killer subs just for us.  Not many aircraft carriers out there besides the ones we have, and certainly they aren't building those for the Taiwanese.

Sorry to get OT, but it's just something I have been thinking about a lot.

L8z,

B

[Tyson]

True, but that's the "old guard" china.  In another 10 years that would never happen, China and the west will be too interdependent.

But I did want to observe that what is happening in China illustrates a good way to bring a historically oppressed people to freedom.  It's what I call "bottom up" change, where the economic freedom precedes political freedom.  When it happens this way, the "common man" tends to embrace it because it leads to real improvements in his everyday life (ie, economic prosperity), and the sense of control and responsibility you get from that leads to wanting/demanding freedoms in other areas of life (ie, politically).  This is a much better method of spreading freedom than the way it is being done in Iraq.  In Iraq it is sort of a "top down" inforcement of democracy.  Sort of like saying "We are going to force you to be free".  Not nearly as effective.  But of course we've commited to our current course of actions, so we're kinda stuck.  Anyway, just thoughts....

[DVV]

I think it would be a great service to everyone if the price of audio gear was kept a closely guarded secret to both listeners and reviewers until the person had listened to enough stuff to form a real solid idea of what sounded good and what didn't.  The knowledge of those numbers assigned to a certain piece of gear makes a truly honest and unbiased opinion of the performance nearly impossible.  Way too much emphasis is given to price.  That information should be hidden for as long as possible.  It'd be gr ...

Nate, that's just about as possible as communism. They also had a great idea, but tripped badly in its implementation, plus they overlooked a very basic need in human beings to want to live better.

If what you propose was indeed implemented, I ask you how would magazines (paper, electronic) be able to wheel and deal? How would they be able to attract advertisements - on blind faith, when you are talking about tens of thousands of dollars? How could authors make side deals (I assume you noticed they all have systems rarely falling below $30K, and sometimes hitting like $80-90K)? How could the manufacturers promote their latest babies, if they can't make side deals, and remember, in promotion, timing can be of critical importance?

So, the answer to why what you propose is not going to happen, good as it may be is, is in one single word - greed.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

I hear so often how good something is 'for the price'.  I then notice that this supposedly high-value item is in the thousands.  So, the more I hear it, the more I realize it means nothing.  If a piece of audio gear costs over a thousand dollars, it should sound very good.  If it's in the multi-thousand dollar range, like 10,k for a cd player, then it should be a benchmark in sound quality and customer service.  
(In my opinion, at 10,k it should be voiced to the customer's ear, like a custom job.  This is ...

Carlman, I understand and agree with your point, but please bear in mind that "for the money" phrase can be used a mighty compliment.

Not to theorize too much, I have a case like that right now. I tested some cables from Neotech, a Taiwan company, and found their middle of the road model, locally costing about $120 with outstanding quality RCA plugs, in monocrystal technology, to be a very impressive cable. Very good in absolute terms, and FOR THE MONEY downright impressive, because I am used to getting that kind of sound for at least 2.5 times the price.

I think we'll agree $120, while not exactly peanut money, is hardly a massive capital investment. Therefore, "for the money" here is used in I believe realistic terms - a relatively moderately priced item has managed to do a job not expected at its price, but at a very considerably greater price, so this is praise, plain and simple. At the end of the day, you have to factor in the price for everything, at least subjectively.

Cheers,
DVV

[nathanm]

I wouldn't expect magazines to not publish prices, but I am saying that for a listening experiment it would be great to have say four different systems from cheap to more-than-yer-house all hidden behind a curtain (well okay, grille cloth) and see if there is a consistent preference listeners have for high priced gear.  Because shouldn't dramatically priced gear perform dramatically better?  I have no problem with adding to the cost with cosmetic things like cool heatsinks and like that CNC polishing thing that Jeff Rowland does which looks badass but of course doesn't affect the sound.  But at least it would be useful to know what factors contribute most to your listening experience without the bias of vision and sticker price knowledge.  

The numerous regional circles here could probably conduct such a test.  You've got a bunch of guys who could all bring in stuff.  Put together a cheap system, a moderately priced system and a high priced system, put the whole works in a blackened room or something and see what people think.

Of course, this earnest scientific stuff would quickly erode into just having fun which is of course what it SHOULD be about, but still, it seems like truly objective testing can't seem to get a foothold in the audio world.  It would take a really determined person to put up with all that work, soldier on with the test and not say, "Oh fuck it, let's have some beers and crank this rocking Krall track."

[beat]

I hear so often how good something is 'for the price'.  I then notice that this supposedly high-value item is in the thousands.  So, the more I hear it, the more I realize it means nothing.  If a piece of audio gear costs over a thousand dollars, it should sound very good.  If it's in the multi-thousand dollar range, like 10,k for a cd player, then it should be a benchmark in sound quality and customer service.  
(In my opinion, at 10,k it should be voiced to the customer's ear, like a custom job.  This is ...

Yeah,
    "for the price" is kinda like "musical" what really is that. Value is something everyone can relate to but when something is over a grand and is great for the price..it makes me wonder against what it is referenced. I have a daily relationship with value. Allow me to illustrate through a story that happened yesterday.
     I had ran out of coffee the other night and it so happens that my little sister and mother in law were over, sister brought mom some starbucks beans so we lit up the espresso machine and had some brew. No good. In fact the next morning I shot some espresso and seriously was about to gag. I never dump coffee but I did yesterday morning. So my buddy calls up and we went down to my cafe and got some of my own beans that I roast. On the way home he wanted to stop and look at road bikes (lance armstrongitis?) They didnt have squat for under 600 bucks. In the car on the way home I tell him we could build him the lightest most tricked out vintage (yet modernized) road bike for way less. What am I getting at here? I guess that 15$ a pound beans are not always good, infact they can be horrible despite a big brand name that everyone loves. Also, you can still get ripped off by spending 600 bucks on a bike that has a great paint job and will impress your friends. He knows he isnt going to race and only wants it for transportation to get to work on occasion..He has a good mountain bike already that he doesn't ride for crying out loud.!! This issue is all covetousness married to pride half the time. The bottom line for me is, dont spend past my -as the chairguy says-"line in the sand" until I know for sure what is on the other side and have experienced it first hand. Therefore I don't (can't) ever tell anyone it is a great idea to spend 2000 on a cdp because it will blow doors on anything in its price range. I hate feeling ripped off and it is so easy to do in the audio world. When people say that a multithousand dollar cdp or anypiece of gear is "great for the price" I sort of feel ashamed of my ears 'cause I feel I must be missing so much and am just settling for trash. Therefore, my ears must suck and couldnt compete against some people's if there were ever going to be a listening contest. Sorry this is getting long. Last words, I swear, I guess I just find that sort of speak belittling to people who do not have disposable income in the same sense that one may get by a snooty waiter pushing a 100$ bottle of wine or someone trying to sell you a new Porsche. I understand that they must be great in their own right but noone can tell me that they "blow away" things that are half their price. A friend of mine built and restored a 370 HP datsun 260z with the original straight 6 (yeah 370HP). And as many of us know there are some killer 25$ bottles out there..OK I'll shut up now.
peace, beat

[Carlman]

.....I sort of feel ashamed of my ears 'cause I feel I must be missing so much and am just settling for trash...

Wow, Beat, you really nailed the shame-based marketing strategy or 'mind control' used by many corporations and even government agencies.  Please continue to think this way, it helps our economy!

I could expand on these kinds of 'effective marketing' programs that control us daily but, this thread has had enough twists.

In any case, you got my point, it's only the stuff that's in the thousands that I have issue being 'good for the price'.

Also, I may try to put together a small-scale demo like Nathan suggests.  I too, want to know if the results would really be dollar-related.  I can use some of the recent 'giant killers' out there and see what really goes down.  

-C

[zybar]

Ok, I just don't get it...

Why are so many people caught up in what something costs?

Yes, people throw around phrases such as "good for the money" on items that a very expensive in real terms (i.e. thousands of dollars), but not so expensive in the audio world - but SO WHAT!!

If somebody has the money to spend and it isn't impacting their life in a negative fashion, let them spend it however they like.

Seems like we are crucifying people who have money.

I am the first to admit that many, many audio products are very expensive, but nobody is forcing us to buy them.  If you are happy putting together a system for as little as possible - GREAT!!  But why should the person who spends more money be perceived as wasting money or being snooty?

Is the $500 cd player 10x better than a $50 player?  Well, I am not sure how you quantify something like that in technical terms, but how about this simple thought....if the person who bought it thinks so, that's all that should matter.  It's not your money so don't worry about it!

Just enjoy the music and not worry about proving if something is worth what it costs.

George

[lonewolfny42]

The numerous regional circles here could probably conduct such a test. You've got a bunch of guys who could all bring in stuff. Put together a cheap system, a moderately priced system and a high priced system, put the whole works in a blackened room or something and see what people think.
 

I've actually thought about doing this - not a curtain or dark room - but blindfolds on the audition listeners. Some might say a curtain might affect the sound...so I eliminated that one. Dark room....naaaa. Blindfolds....thats the ticket.... !!! Might try that with the Dodson - EA Turbo ECD-1 audition...might be interesting.