[zybar]

I've actually thought about doing this - not a curtain or dark room - but blindfolds on the audition listeners. Some might say a curtain might affect the sound...so I eliminated that one. Dark room....naaaa. Blindfolds....thats the ticket.... !!! Might try that with the Dodson - EA Turbo ECD-1 audition...might be interesting.

Years back there was an infamous blind A/B where a big time Pass dealer couldn't pick out a Pass amp vs. a Yamaha amp.

Sometimes I do think we are influenced by the price of something.  On the other hand... Chris, can you tell me you didn't hear a noticeable difference between my ECD-1 and the Dodson the other day?  Now, is that difference in performance worth the 4x price difference?  I think it all comes down to if you can afford it.

George

[Carlman]

Ok, I just don't get it...

Why are so many people caught up in what something costs?
..

I don't know on this one... I could care less about the cost... just the overuse of the phrase... I have spent many thousands on this hobby and am indeed a (at least perceived) snob in this and other hobbies.  

My intent with this thread was really just to make fun of people touting expensive equipment who then say it's good for the price.  Well, it should be.  That's no longer the issue.  It's now what flavor of good is it?  To whom does it appeal?  You can't just say it's good for the money with no comparison.  What does it blow away?  

I'd like to see/hear a blindfolded DAC comparison.  I think that'd drive people literally insane.  It'd be like being at the eye doctor who's flicking back and forth between 2 optics that are slightly different... is this better, or is this better... click/click... Ok, I'll do it again... click/click...  

[lonewolfny42]

Years back there was an infamous blind A/B where a big time Pass dealer couldn't pick out a Pass amp vs. a Yamaha amp.

Sometimes I do think we are influenced by the price of something.  On the other hand... Chris, can you tell me you didn't hear a noticeable difference between my ECD-1 and the Dodson the other day?  Now, is that difference in performance worth the 4x price difference?  I think it all comes down to if you can afford it.

George

George, I did hear a difference...the Dodson sounded better. 4 x's better, I don't think so. ... But ...would I spend that much ...(I can)....but ...I'm not sure I would. Its not the money, its that things are changing so fast in digital, in a short time it most likely would be surpassed by another. Then , I would not be happy about spending that much. Very confusing ......

[zybar]

Agreed.

The digital front is pretty scary.

Today I listened to a DVD-A of Tigliliy via my Panny RP-91 and Denon 3805.  In some ways it was almost as good as listening to the Redbook via EA Sony S7700 -> Electrocompaniet ECD-1 -> Bent NOH.  I actually think I heard it more detail via DVD-A but it sounded a little harsh and definitely less musical.

I was thinking if the modified ECD-1 was really good to go ahead and do it.  I am just wondering if it makes sense to put $1400 in mods into something on the digital side right now...

George

[lonewolfny42]

ECD-1 List price - $2,000.00

EA Mods - $1,400.00[/list:u]
Total - $3,400.00[/list:u]
Dodson List price - $8,000.00[/list:u]
Difference - $4,600.00[/list:u]
I'll stick with the ECD-1 mod....for now. [/list:u]

[zybar]

Gets more interesting if you can get the Dodson on Audiogon for around $4K...

You would get a possibly superior dac (we will find out soon enough) for only a little more.

However, the resale value of the Dodson would be significantly higher.  Since as you pointed, digital is constantly changing, this might be a better use of funds and provide better protection.

Just a thought...

I really do hope the EA ECD-1 is equal to the Dodson.

BTW, I am going to be getting in on audition the latest version of the Audio Logic tubed dac.  The one we heard at my place was 5 years old and not current.

George

[lonewolfny42]

Gets more interesting if you can get the Dodson on Audiogon for around $4K...

You would get a possibly superior dac (we will find out soon enough) for only a little more.

However, the resale value of the Dodson would be significantly higher.  Since as you pointed, digital is constantly changing, this might be a better use of funds and provide better protection.

Just a thought...

I really do hope the EA ECD-1 is equal to the Dodson.

BTW, I am going to be getting in on audition the latest versi ...

All were list prices....Agon used a better deal.....but....can you find a Dodson used ??? New Audio Logic should be interesting audition...at home ?? But....then again ,another digital has popped up....see...just goes on , and on, and on, and on......

[nathanm]

If somebody has the money to spend and it isn't impacting their life in a negative fashion, let them spend it however they like.

Seems like we are crucifying people who have money.

No no no, it's not about criticizing anyone for spending money.  Even if you have a lot of money wouldn't you like to know if it's REALLY being spent wisely?   I think it would be interesting to do as it would teach you more about your own tastes and hearing with non-hearing senses taken out of the equation as much as possible.  Like maybe such a test would reveal that you can get away with spending less and that what you initially thought was a really important piece of gear wasn't as big a deal in a blind test.  Like for example I am fairly sure I would not be able to tell which amps I own are which in a blind test.  Or it could be the opposite result, that extra dough put into good parts and whatnot really does make for a superior experience.  Either way, the blind test would get closer to the sonic truth of a certain combination.

[lonewolfny42]

"I don't mind spending money , I just don't like wasting money!!"

A quote I live by !!

[DVV]

I don't know if you guys know this, but when speaking about value for money you should consider how retial prices are formed. Also, it's very telling of how things work in this world.

Let's take a product with a factory manufacturing price of say $70.

Actual mnf, price - $70
Manufacturer's profit - $30
-------------------------------
Factory price - $100

Shipping, app. 3...15%, say 10% - +$10 = $110
Duties, customs, etc, 3% - +$3.3 = $113.3
Distributor margin, 40...55%, say 40%, +$44.52 - $157.8
Shipping to dealers, stock, etc, 2...4%, say3%, +$3,5 = $161.3
Dealer margin, 30...40%, say 35%, +$48.4 = $209.7
Taxes, VAT, in Europe typically 19%, +$39.8 = $249.5

This is for mass produced items, which are shipped by the thousands. For small series products, and especially for hand made products, where a shipping batch might be anything like 10-50 units and no more, the above math is modified to the max, so it's quite normal for the multiplication factor from manufacturer's price to retail price to be 3-3.5 times, sometimes even more.

In other words, what actually costs $100 is in the end inflated to $350, where everybody makes more money than the guy who thought it up, mounted its production and actually made it.

Which is why "value for money" has taken on a VERY relative meaning.

Cheers,
DVV

[doug s.]

True, but that's the "old guard" china.  In another 10 years that would never happen, China and the west will be too interdependent.

But I did want to observe that what is happening in China illustrates a good way to bring a historically oppressed people to freedom.  It's what I call "bottom up" change, where the economic freedom precedes political freedom.  When it happens this way, the "common man" tends to embrace it because it leads to real improvements in his everyday life (ie, economic prosperity) ...

presently, the usa, which makes up ~5% of the worlds' population, consumes ~30% of the worlds' natural resources.  what's gonna happen when china, which makes up ~25% of the worlds' population, starts consuming natural resources at a similar rate as the usa does?    

it's awreddy starting to happen, w/commodities like oil & steel, & the world economy is awreddy starting to get squeezed.  100 years from now, china will be the planet's main superpower, especially w/the present trend of all the major world corporations wanting to open factories there...

doug s.

[beat]

Ok, I just don't get it...

Why are so many people caught up in what something costs?...If somebody has the money to spend and it isn't impacting their life in a negative fashion, let them spend it however they like.

Seems like we are crucifying people who have money. quote]

Oh, I hope I didn't come off sounding like I was bashing the "haves" vs. the "have nots" or that it is bad to spend frivolously. I wasnt trying to imply that at all. If so I am guilty myself as I just spent over 200 dollars on VonDutch belt buckles. In fact I hope to tap this market soon with my own custom built amps and hope to do OK for myself. My point was just to build upon the topic of "for the money" which does imply someone is making a reccommendation to someone else followed by "blows away" whatever. I was trying to just point out the relativism of that statement and how there are a million flavors of good and that sometimes people need to remember that when they are making a reccomendation that it is your neighbor's, friend's, or a stranger's hard earned money that you are playing with at that point in time and extra care should be taken. In the case of my buddy who wants to buy a bike..he is struggling money wise and has 4 kids and I know my little sister does not have 15 bucks to blow on a pound of coffee but here heart was in the right place so it is all good.   Even though I personally would never buy starbucks

[zybar]

I was trying to just point out the relativism of that statement and how there are a million flavors of good and that sometimes people need to remember that when they are making a reccomendation that it is your neighbor's, friend's, or a stranger's hard earned money that you are playing with at that point in time and extra care should be taken.

Beat,

I don't think by voicing my opinion that I am in ANY WAY responsible for how somebody spends their money (wisely or unwisely).  I am simply providing a data point which can be used or not used by the reader in the manner they see fit.  

If I were to recommend a piece of gear and somebody who can't afford that piece of gear goes out and buys it at the expense of taking care of his family, that is dead wrong - but not my fault or issue.

This kind of thinking is the problem with society today...nobody is responsible for their actions - everything is somebody elses fault.  

Off my soapbox and back to music and Yankee-Red Sox game.  

George

[beat]

Right, of course.
   If someone doesn't have the common sense to leave within their means that cannot be blamed on society or any individual.