What is "a lot of gain" and how do you find it?

imanpaul · « **on:** 25 Jul 2013, 01:48 am »

i have Acoustic Technologies speakers (http://www.acoustictechnologiesllc.com/).

They're a single 3 inch driver. I'm looking for an amp.

The speaker was reviewed by Stereo Times (http://www.stereotimes.com/speak020811.shtml).

This is a quote from the review - "I found out the speakers needed an amplifier and/or preamplifier with a lot of gain to maximize the dynamic response and create the holographic presentation".

What does this mean? I've read what's available on this site about gain and still don't get it. i especially don't get how it relates to amp+preamp+dac systems like peachtree, nad, nuforce.

Any help is really appreciated.

galyons · « **Reply #1 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 04:09 am »

Since neither the manufacturer nor the sycophant, (reviewer?), bothered to give the basic efficiency of the speakers, "a lot of gain" is pretty meaningless. Every stage in your audio chain produces a voltage gain from the next. Source => Line => Amp. Reality is that most audio systems have too much gain. That is why the preamp/line stage is used to attenuate the signal. To determine how much gain you need you have to start with the efficiency of your speakers.

Cheers,
Geary

SET Man · « **Reply #2 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 05:06 am »

Hey!

The driver used looks like Tang Band 3".....

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-842

And I think they are. So, in raw form the driver sensitivity is 86dB according to the spec.

Hmmm... I've skim through the review you've mentioned and don't understand the "need... of lots of gain" the reviewer mentioned. So, the speakers didn't sound good with some amps and etc.

Anyway, I've built speakers using Tang Band 3" paper cone drivers. Although their sensitivity is not high, they are not hard to drive at all. I've tried them from my 18wpc SET, 100wpc receiver, Naim Nait integ-amp and etc. And they play more than loud enough for me. If they are tuned right than the impedance should be pretty being and easy to drive.

If you ask me for an amp to go with them. Well, since I'm a tube kindna guy I would say look for a good 40wpc push-pull for them, should work fine in small to medium size room.

Take care,
Buddy

imanpaul · « **Reply #3 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 05:45 am »

Thanks for the answers. They're helping. i did some more research and found a show report that gave the specs as
92dB sensitive and 8 ohms. They should be really easy to drive.

I guess I'll forget the review and just try some amps. i've heard these speakers sound amazing and I'm hoping to get close to it.

Thanks again for your help.

JLM · « **Reply #4 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 11:16 am »

From 'needs lots of gain' I wonder how they sound at lower spls (quieter volumes). The review is not clear/complete IMO. It doesn't even mention how low they go or how loud they'll get (certainly concerns when dealing with a single 3 inch driver regardless of cabinet design).

The comment about careful positioning is not uncommon with small driver/rear horn loaded designs. Seems that they are unexplainably fussy of amplification too. That's two red flags for the product/review in my book.

I'm a single driver design fan/owner, but that driver in whatever cabinet isn't worth $2650 USD/pair even if all you ever listen to is a little girl with an acoustic guitar (which is all such a design appears to be well suited for). For the price of a pair of 3 inch Tangband drivers from Parts Express you'd have $2600 left for cabinets and profit (not so different from many speaker vendors, but harder to hide in a single driver design). For better value in single driver designs look here at Omega or at Brines Acoustics.

Frankly for that money, I'd look elsewhere. But to each their own and if you've heard them and like them, go for it.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 02:56 pm »

With all due respect JLM, I think you are wrong. You should listen to these speakers before you judge them.

I have heard these speakers at a couple of shows and they are not overpriced. They sounded surprisingly good for their size and they seemed very competitive at their price. They also seemed to be plug and play. My big Omegas cost me the same amount of money (several years ago), and I had to spend a lot of my own time and money to finish them. They were not plug and play. I nearly eliminated the shout and ringing, and I completely fixed the rising frequency problem. Why couldn't they do this at the factory? I am certainly no speaker expert and I figured it out. The Omegas were a bad purchase as far as value goes, but a good purchase for learning about speakers.

As for the original question, why do I need gain?, lets be realistic about how much air a small driver can move. A medium efficiency driver that is very small in size will probably benefit from having an active preamp driving a power amp just to improve the sense of scale, drive, and weight. Or perhaps an integrated amp that has a lot of gain before the power stage. (Not just a power amp with a volume control.) That would be my guess anyway.

Let us know what amps you are thinking about buying, and that might get you more helpful comments.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #6 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 03:03 pm »

Quote from: imanpaul on 25 Jul 2013, 05:45 am

....... i've heard these speakers sound amazing and I'm hoping to get close to it.

Are you saying that you already own them, and now you are trying to get them to sound as good as when you first heard them?

Or are you saying that you have only heard that they sound good?

DaveC113 · « **Reply #7 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 03:45 pm »

I have heard these and IMO the Omega RS5 driver is superior... a far better value for the money, has better low-end extension and higher efficiency. I'm also not a fan of BLH designs, the bass never "matches" with the rest. And with a freq response starting at 100 Hz, integrating a subwoofer is going to be much more difficult.

Also, I'd guess a low powered SET isn't going to be the best match for them with the driver's 86 dB eff rating and IMO these are the best kind of amps to use with single driver speakers... so I agree with SET Man's suggestion of a PP tube amp. But the Omega Super 3 XRS are half the price and have a lot of advantages over the ATs. If you put them side-by-side I have no doubt the Omegas would come out on top by a large margin.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #8 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 04:28 pm »

Not sure how the question changed from "why do I need more gain with this speaker?" into please judge these speakers for me. But here we are.

srb · « **Reply #9 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 04:30 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 25 Jul 2013, 03:03 pm

Are you saying that you already own them, and now you are trying to get them to sound as good as when you first heard them?

Or are you saying that you have only heard that they sound good?

From the first post, sounds like he owns them:

Quote from: imanpaul on 25 Jul 2013, 01:48 am

i have Acoustic Technologies speakers (http://www.acoustictechnologiesllc.com/).

Steve

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 04:40 pm »

Yes, that's what I thought too, but the second post made me unclear. We will find out soon.

If he does own them, and he has heard them sound much better than they do with his own amp, then the easy answer would be to buy the amp/preamp that he heard them sound so good with. (Whew!)

imanpaul · « **Reply #11 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 04:58 pm »

Thanks for all the help. This is my first topic and my first few posts. I’m learning. I should have given more context and been clearer. Here’s an attempt.
I already own these speakers. I heard them a few years ago at a show and loved them. The whole room was the sweet spot which is what I want.
The problem was they were $2500 which I couldn’t and wouldn’t do. A couple of weeks ago, I saw them on ebay with no bids. I bid the minimum of $325 and forgot about it. A week later, I got notice that I won it for $325. No one else had bid. I have them and they’re mint.
Needless to say I’m very happy about it and think it a steal. I tried the two solid state amps that I have. One, an Acurus 100 watt, was a horrible match with a flat, uninvolving sound.
The second is a basic amp with volume control which was slightly better but not good. This is where the question of “gain” comes in.
The electronics I heard them with was a Pass Labs X1 preamplifier and First Watt F3. I can’t afford these.
My first question should have been ”do I need to have an active preamp?” is this the gain the reviewer was alluding to?
I was thinking of the Rega Brio-r but I think the rega is not an active preamp. If I use a tube integrated, would (or could) this have an active preamp or would I need to go with a separate amp and pre-amp and dac.
Ideally, an all in one amp, pre and dac would be ideal. Would the peachtree deco 125 have an active preamp? Nuforce DDA-100?
I hope this gives a clearer picture. I really appreciate all the help.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 05:20 pm »

Congratulations on a killer deal and welcome to AC!

A quick look at the Pass amp shows a gain of only 13dB, and the preamp at either 4 or 14dB. So, that's a total of 17dB or 27dB of amplification gain, depending on the gain set in the preamp. Either way, that's not really a lot of gain. I mean it's not like it was an excessive amount, or unusual. Maybe it's really just a question of quality vs. quantity.

If you liked the class A solid state sound on those speakers, then maybe that's what you should shoot for. I will let the others make a recommendation for you since I don't have as much experience (lately) with that.

galyons · « **Reply #13 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 05:29 pm »

Sounds like a great buy!!!

I am not a fan of multitasking units. My preference is to keep the individual functions unique so that I can make changes in the chain when and where needed. You would need to drill down on any integrated amp to see if the preamp section is active, some are, most aren't. IMO, you will typically get a more dynamic sound from an active preamp stage with the trade-off of adding another active stage. Anything in the chain beyond a "straight wire" will impact the sound.

I would never buy a DAC combo anything! The technology is constantly changing. DAC's are getting better and better and the cost continues to decline. Combining the DAC with any other function in the chain is short term planned obsolescence.

Decide whether you want tubes, SS or a combination. Some find the drive of a Class A SS amp with a tube preamp to be a nice combo. I am a all tube guy, so take my tube v. SS with a grain of salt.

Always bear in mind, no matter what you are told. No matter what you read. The only ears that you need to impress are your own!!

Cheers,
Geary

SET Man · « **Reply #14 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 06:47 pm »

Quote from: imanpaul on 25 Jul 2013, 04:58 pm

Thanks for all the help. This is my first topic and my first few posts. I’m learning. I should have given more context and been clearer. Here’s an attempt.
I already own these speakers. I heard them a few years ago at a show and loved them. The whole room was the sweet spot which is what I want.
The problem was they were $2500 which I couldn’t and wouldn’t do. A couple of weeks ago, I saw them on ebay with no bids. I bid the minimum of $325 and forgot about it. A week later, I got notice that I won it for $325. No one else had bid. I have them and they’re mint.
Needless to say I’m very happy about it and think it a steal. I tried the two solid state amps that I have. One, an Acurus 100 watt, was a horrible match with a flat, uninvolving sound.
The second is a basic amp with volume control which was slightly better but not good. This is where the question of “gain” comes in.
The electronics I heard them with was a Pass Labs X1 preamplifier and First Watt F3. I can’t afford these.
My first question should have been ”do I need to have an active preamp?” is this the gain the reviewer was alluding to?
I was thinking of the Rega Brio-r but I think the rega is not an active preamp. If I use a tube integrated, would (or could) this have an active preamp or would I need to go with a separate amp and pre-amp and dac.
Ideally, an all in one amp, pre and dac would be ideal. Would the peachtree deco 125 have an active preamp? Nuforce DDA-100?
I hope this gives a clearer picture. I really appreciate all the help.

Hey!

Well, now I get it. Look like you got them for a great price. I think they probably cost to make about what you've paid for them.... give or take another $100.

I've own Acurus A250 before long ago. It sure got power and good bass but other than that it sounds flat and annoying especially on top. So, it didn't last long in my system.

As for Pass Lab. A good audio friend of mine own a pair of Aleph 3 I think and he really like them. He was going to loan them to me so to play with in my system driving my Single Driver (Fostex 6") speaker but we haven't have time to do so yet. But since he like them and I know him I'm sure they sound great. So, if you are looking for SS, look for a used Pass is not a bad idea. Maybe pair them with tubed pre.

But maybe I'm a bit bias on this .... I still think a good 40+wpc PP tube amp with active tube pre would be wonderful with them. Maybe a used Quick Silver?

And as for Class-D, Class-T and other switching amp... well, sorry not a fan of those at all.

Tang Band have some nice fullrange drivers and if done right can sound very good. But looking at the driver spec it is hard to imagine you can get anything below 80hz from that particular driver. And the given 92dB sensitivity is a bit optimistic. The site mentioned about "resonator" I remembered years ago there were a speaker company using similar scheme with small driver and resonator board or something like that tuned to lower frequency to help amplify the low end. Maybe that's help.

Anyway, since I've fooled around with Tang Band 3" driver before I know that they can sound very good, but they just don't have the sense of scale or impact of low end like larger driver... even compared to my 6" Fostex driver in large enclosure.

But I've never this particular speaker so I can't say for sure. So, good luck with your search. BTW.... it would help if you tell us your budget for the amp.

Take care,
Buddy

DaveC113 · « **Reply #15 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 08:00 pm »

Ok, nice score on those speakers!

In general I agree with Setman about class d... but I auditiond the tbi millenia amp and it is very good and not too expensive. I would recommend it.

As far as gain, you only need enough to get the amp to full power, any more is detrimental. Pairing a high gain preamp with an amp with low input sensitivity is not a good idea. The tbi or a tube pp integrated is your best bet without spending a lot. Get a separate dac because technology changes. Schiit audio sells nice sacs that are upgradeable and made in the usa, I have a bifrost uber and like it very much.

RDavidson · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 08:13 pm »

There's a super nice Cayin A50T over on Audiogon right now and it's priced right. I have no affiliation with the seller. I have owned this amp in the past. I only sold it as my baby son was getting more and more mobile and there were other things I was curious about in the audio world, like Virtue Audio's new (at the time) Sensation 901.
Anyway, unless you listen at ear breaking volumes, I can't imagine anything sounding nicer (more organic, warm,open, fatigue free) than that Cayin, with those speakers, at anywhere near that price.
Of course you can shop around and maybe eventually piece together a decent system, possibly for less money. But the Cayin is an integrated, which takes out the guess work for you in terms of matching an amp and preamp.
All you'd have to worry about is which tubes you want to try next.

SoCalWJS · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 08:16 pm »

Nice score on the Speakers!

Do you remember what amp was driving them when you heard them at a show and liked them so much? - Might be a good starting point.

RDavidson · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 08:26 pm »

He heard them hooked up to some Pass gear, which is well beyond what he wants to spend. Not to mention, I think he can easily find far less expensive gear that would satisfy his needs.

A NAD 3020 might be an awesome place to start too. Super cheap. Not a ton of power on paper, but ballsy (2 ohm stable) and very warm and musical. That'd definitely get you started I would think. When you want to upgrade, selling your 3020 should be easy, as long as you get a good one to start with.

SoCalWJS · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 Jul 2013, 08:31 pm »

Quote from: RDavidson on 25 Jul 2013, 08:26 pm

He heard them hooked up to some Pass gear, which is well beyond what he wants to spend. Not to mention, I think he can easily find far less expensive gear that would satisfy his needs.

A NAD 3020 might be an awesome place to start too. Super cheap. Not a ton of power on paper, but ballsy (2 ohm stable) and very warm and musical. That'd definitely get you started I would think. When you want to upgrade, selling your 3020 should be easy, as long as you get a good one to start with.

missed that