Industry wide speaker connection problems???

Wayner · « **on:** 19 Jul 2013, 05:08 pm »

I recently purchased a nice set of speaker cables (yes, they are 10 gauge). However, there are several issues that I have with them and I also see a general path the speaker cable industry is going down, that I think presents to the consumer potential electrical hazards.

The first one is the use of long fingered spade connectors. As we all know, things can become loose over time and is it easy to see that long fingered spade terminals can actually touch each other and cause a direct short to the amplifier.

The other practice is the use of metal caps over the connectors. Again, if the connection becomes loose, the caps could come into contact with each other and cause a short.

One other problem is the use of the old style banana connector. The new BFA style fits better, stays in line with the binding post and electrically, makes better contact.

The old vintage stuff used to have spring loaded speaker connectors (like on the old Marantz receivers), that you simply inserted an end of a stripped wire into. Pretty safe, unless you had strands flying about. Of course, this style of speaker wire connector wouldn't let the "0000" gauge speaker wire guy to use his favorite, so by the wayside this type of connection went.

Other older amps had screw terminals with barrier in between each screw terminal (for small spade mounting) that would keep the spade straight and also prevent any accidental contact with adjacent connectors.

I certainly do not like government involvement on stuff like this, but perhaps it's time the NEC, or NFPA started to take a look at what is going on. With amps hitting the 300 watts per channel range and some mono block amps hitting the 1000 watt range, IMO, there is an electrical hazard that has not been addressed, and the guilty party, again in my opinion, is the speaker cable guys.

You would think someone could come up with a better, safer speaker connector that would take almost any rational size wire and keep them in control.

Wayner

martyo · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Jul 2013, 06:55 pm »

Interesting post.

jtwrace · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 Jul 2013, 07:04 pm »

If it's such an industry issue then why not post this in a more common circle?

galyons · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 Jul 2013, 07:12 pm »

[quote author=Wayner link=topic=118376.msg1243436#msg1243436 date=1374253728
...
You would think someone could come up with a better, safer speaker connector that would take almost any rational size wire and keep them in control.

Wayner
[/quote]

George Cardas, "CPBP" (Cardas Patented Binding Post) These have been around for a very long time. I think the design is too "radical" for most audio consuming folks.
http://www.cardas.com/cpbp.php

Cheers,
Geary

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Jul 2013, 07:30 pm »

Binding posts are the standard, amp manufacturers know that. It's their job to make their the amp doesn't burst into a ball of flame if leads touch. There's no significant voltage coming out of the speaker wire after an amp, doesn't matter how much wattage ... so there's no danger at the speaker end. The only danger is a poorly designed amplifier without proper fault protection.

Wayner · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 Jul 2013, 07:50 pm »

Of course, they are the "standard", but they are not very good, nor are they secure, nor are they idiot proof. If you think that all amps are the same, try short your leads together, with the amp cranked and see what happens.

If you have ever attended any NFPA-79e classes, you will discover that people do stupid things all the time. Some out of ignorance, some out of sloppiness. And if you think it's a connection that can't kill or start a fire, that simply isn't true. Within the amplifier box is a huge step-down (or in the case of tubes, step up transformer) that has the potential to fail. If not class II, can fail thru the windings and core.

While I personally haven't heard of anyone dying from a defaulted hifi (yet), there are always "pool side parties" with extension cords to an inside, unprotected outlet (GFCI). Tell me this doesn't happen every day.

UL (Underwriter's Laboratory) has decided to take low voltage devices into their listing, because of the potential for personal injury either via direct contact or consequential damage from low voltage devices. If it runs on electricity it can at minimum, start a fire. Even a 12 volt battery in your car can start a fire.

I don't think that the jack is the problem, rather the connector type used and the chance of short circuit that a poorly designed connector may cause. All amplifier manufacturers are not created equal and therefore the results of short circuits can be from a blown fuse to a fire or something else.

I'm just saying that the audio industry can come up with a better, safer connector then what is the current popular 5-way binding post. It's really not very good.

Wayner

Speedskater · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Jul 2013, 08:49 pm »

Well much of the semi-pro & pro audio industry have moved away from the traditional phone (TRS/TS) connector or dual banana plug to the most excellent Neutrik Speakon connector. But this is a very different shaped connector and does not retro-fit easily.

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Jul 2013, 08:53 pm »

Quote from: Vapor Audio on 19 Jul 2013, 07:30 pm

.... There's no significant voltage coming out of the speaker wire after an amp, doesn't matter how much wattage ....

Huh?

Best,
Anand.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Jul 2013, 08:54 pm »

Yes the Neutrik Speakon connector is the answer to the issue. However no one cares.
I doubt ANY audiophile speaker manufacturer is going to chage to that system. Fist, plenty of audiophiles HAVE expensive speaker cables already..
No one wants to change it anyway, Except maybe the OP and a few such ilk.
So if the OP is willing to start a crusade, and maybe get some enraged Mothers in on it.. sort of like the audio equivalent of MADD but for speaker terminals.. LOL THEN perhaps something will get done.
Until then Five way it is.

srb · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Jul 2013, 09:19 pm »

It's hard to implement a connector change with so many amplifiers, cables and speakers in use that need to be compatible.

Who would have thought that the RCA connector which makes a positive signal connection before making a ground connection would have survived this long?

In the non-pro audio world, for speakers I think the best we can hope for is binding posts and wire connectors that are both insulated. WBT makes 19 different models of binding posts, but only 4 of them are insulated. Their insulated housing completely encloses a spade or bare wire connection.

Like Wayner, I do like the BFA/Z-plug style banana plugs, and the ones I use have insulated barrels or finger grips.

Steve

*Scotty* · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 Jul 2013, 10:12 pm »

The primary danger of a short comes from the spacing of the binding posts. They are set up to take a Pomona dual banana plug.

This 0.75inch spacing makes short circuits more likely with some types of binding post designs and speaker cable terminations.
A slightly less well designed binding post than the BFA/Z can be had from ebay for about $7.50 a piece.
It seems like one of the cheapest things that could be done to lessen the likelihood of a short is to increase the distance between the binding posts.

CMC 858-S-R binding post

For what it's worth the the Vampire #CM2F/CB RCA jack makes ground contact before hot. There may be other RCA jacks that do this, but that would have be confirmed via an Ohm meter.
Scotty

Wayner · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Jul 2013, 11:50 am »

I use the dual banana whenever possible as well, Scotty. It's a much more stable connection because of the 2 tied together. I also have what I believe to be WBT connectors on my Paradigm speakers and they are very nice.

Perhaps some of the issues that I see is the fact that no one is following any standards. I've seen many posts with different well depths. Of course, like many things (heh, heh) the deeper the better. The posts on the back of my Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers are some of the poorest I have ever seen and the cure for me was to use a dual banana connector.

Yeah, I doubt any changes will ever happen, unless someone comes up with a design that works so well, everyone else decides to copy it.

And the IEC power cord did come about slowly. It's virtually on every piece of equipment made now.

Wayner

JerryM · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Jul 2013, 03:58 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 19 Jul 2013, 05:08 pm

I certainly do not like government involvement on stuff like this, but perhaps it's time the NEC, or NFPA started to take a look at what is going on.

They have, ad nauseum.

Here is just a partial list from the ANSI/CEA standard for audio cabling:

AIA A-201-1997 General Conditions of the Contract for Construction

ANSI/TIA/568-C, Generic Telecommunications Cabling for Customer Premises, February, 2009.

ANSI/TIA/EIA-568-C-2, Balanced Twisted-Pair Telecommunications Cabling and Components
Standards (See Addendum 1 For category 6 Performance Specs), August 2009.

ANSI/CEA-863-A, Connection Color Codes for Home Theater Systems, March, 2005.

IEC 60603-7, Connectors for Electronic Equipment – Part 7: Detail Specification Unshielded, Free
and Fixed Connectors, July 2008.

ANSI/NFPA-70, National Electrical Code®, August 2008.

ANSI/TIA-570-B, Residential Telecommunications Infrastructure Standard, January 2009.

ANSI/TIA/EIA-606-A Administration Standard for Commercial Telecommunications Infrastructure May
2002

ANSI/TIA-968-A, Telecommunications Telephone Terminal Equipment Technical Requirements for
Connection of Terminal Equipment to the Telephone Network, August 2007

AES-48 AES Standard on Interconnections – Grounding and EMC Practices – Shields of Connectors
in Audio Equipment Containing Active Circuitry May 2005

EIA/ECA 310-E Cabinets, Racks, Panels, and Associated Equipment, December 2005

ANSI-ASHRAE 55 - Thermal Environmental Conditions for Human Occupancy, 2004

UL 1678 – Household, Commercial, and Professional Use Carts and Stands for Use with Audio/Video
Equipment, December 2001

ANSI/TIA/EIA-569-A: Commercial Building Standard for Telecommunications Pathways and Spaces,
December 2007.

Have fun,

Jerry

Diamond Dog · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Jul 2013, 04:42 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 19 Jul 2013, 07:50 pm

While I personally haven't heard of anyone dying from a defaulted hifi (yet), there are always "pool side parties" with extension cords to an inside, unprotected outlet (GFCI). Tell me this doesn't happen every day.
Wayner

This doesn't happen every day. Not here, anyways. Who the Hell would want to set up a hi-fi system in the snow and lounge around in the cold waiting for the Reaper to claim them ?
BADABUM!

But seriously folks, if the alternative is the wonky, plasticky connectors mandated by the EU like I've had on the last ARCAM amps I owned ( which required equally wonky, plasticky connectors be inflicted upon your cables ), I'm not sure that's progress...

D.D.

Wayner · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Jul 2013, 07:37 pm »

DD, I agree that the EU stuff is even more stupid. It's like how do we get around the lawyers and have a solution designed by committee. And what is with the 1" spacing, so that the better, double bananas don't work? And, what else is up with the little red and black plastic plugs in the holes of the binding posts?

Wayner

avahifi · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Jul 2013, 08:21 pm »

The 3/4" spacing on double banana jacks matches some European AC power jacks. The little plastic plugs in the Pioneer speakers are to prevent them from being plugged directly into AC.

The plugs are easy to remove by unscrewing the banana jack fittings completely.

Frank

Wayner · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Jul 2013, 11:06 pm »

Yeah, but if your that stupid, you deserve to get zapped. You can't legislate intelligence.

Wayner

JohnR · « **Reply #17 on:** 21 Jul 2013, 12:42 am »

Quote from: srb on 19 Jul 2013, 09:19 pm

It's hard to implement a connector change with so many amplifiers, cables and speakers in use that need to be compatible.

Hm, but it's not that hard to put speakons and bindings posts on an amp:

(http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/print/designer_notebook_inside_new_crown_xls_series_power_amplifiers)

Or speakers:

(http://www.jimtrade.com/mdrelectronics/two_way_army_type_binding_post_speaker_with_speakon_connector.htm)

srb · « **Reply #18 on:** 21 Jul 2013, 01:03 am »

Quote from: JohnR on 21 Jul 2013, 12:42 am

Hm, but it's not that hard to put speakons and bindings posts on an amp:

Let's do it! It is quite common on the prosound amps, but I can't recall if I've seen it on a consumer hi-fi amplifier. There are so many amplfiers that have two sets of binding posts for bi-wiring, that it would probably be a wash in cost to substitute a pair Speakons for one set of binding posts.

For speakers that feel they need bi-wired connections, it would be a bit more complicated (and confusing?). I suppose the shorting jumpers between binding posts would still serve to connect the parallel bi-wired pair of Speakon connectors.

Steve

2gumby2 · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 Jul 2013, 11:44 am »

I build my own speaker cables using either Vampire Wire or Dayton Audio banana connectors. I've never had any issues with them and have been quite satisfied with the results. In the past I've used the upper end Audioquest BFAs, but they're more expensive and I didn't notice any difference between Audioquest and Vampire or Dayton.