[Don_S]

I am considering building a computer based music server. I have noticed many full-product companies that used to offer servers have removed them from their product line.  Many other companies that only offered servers are now extinct.  I have developed abandonment issues.

A friend loaned me an almost new Mac Mini that he wishes to sell. I can’t get it to work properly with either monitor I try it with so I am off to a fantastic start.  I feel like I have taken my first step into quicksand.

Ignoring that for the moment my big question concerns longevity. My goal is to create a system that will stand the test of time. If I use two external drives (one main and one a backup) and store in either .wav or FLAC will they be portable?  I mean portable in the sense I can change computers and playback software and still access the files. Maybe even go from Mac to PC. Will I still be able to access my libraries 10 years from now?

Ignore HDD failure because my scenario involves always having two functional drives. If one fails I will immediately replace it. I would probably have to use FLAC for metadata tagging. If there is any way to do it with .wav I would appreciate knowing that.

Am I on the right track with my thinking?  Is there any software I should avoid because it would lock me in? Easy on the jargon please.  I don’t speak geek. I also think the five most dangerous words are “It is easy, you just…..”.

Like hooking up a Mac Mini is easy---you just connect the HDMI cable to your monitor. 

[Andre2]

Apple based server is the way to go, in my opinion.  They will be around for another 10 years easily.  I am playing itunes with audirvana and I really enjoy the music quality I get.

Check this thread out:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107623.0

[mcgsxr]

A little more information might help.  I have played with this for closing on 10 years incuding Logitech devices.  Many others here far longer than me,  no doubt.
 
What level of fidelity are you after?
How will you connect the server to your music system/systems?
How do you want to control the server?
What hardware do you have already?  Any tablets or smartphones?
Budget thoughts?

My current install uses a dedicated Dell netbook with 2GB RAM, running 7.8 Logitech Media Server s/w, 2TB FLAC on an outboard drive, usb-spdif converter, then optical cable to my receiver which does the DAC work.  I use an iPod Touch as my remote, running the iPeng app to wirelessly control the tunes.

I was after mid-fi results on a shoestring budget of about $450.

Works great.  Much better rez out there, but honestly to achieve it all I would need to change would be using a high end usb DAC in place of my converter.

[Vincent Kars]

Let’s see if I can add a bit more quicksand.

WAV can be tagged (but not all media players do) but the standard lags some relevant tags like Album. There are programs that circumnavigated this issue by writing ID3 style tag in a info chunk (yep, the geek talk) but very few support it.

If you like a well tagged audio file that can be transferred to any other media player, WAV is not the way to go.

FLAC's metadata system supports tags, cover art, seek tables, and cue sheets.
 It runs on Windows, OSX and Linux.
The integrity of the audio data is insured by storing an MD5 signature of the original uuencoded audio data in the file header, which can be compared against later during decoding or testing.
In normal speak, you can verify if the data is not corrupted.

FLAC is the way to go but did I hear Mac Mini?
You are running OSX and probably iTunes and Apple (just like MS) don’t support FLAC.
They have their own format: ALAC.

There are alternative for iTunes and they do play FLAC but I can’t advise you on this as my experience with OSX is rather limited.

Personally I don’t worry too much about the format. As long as it is lossless you can always convert to another format, without loss because that is where lossless is about.
Likewise future proving, I expect FLAC to be around the next 10 years. If support is waning, convert to another lossless format.

2 Disks I do think meager, certainly when in the same home.
You might backup the first to the second but if you do have data rot on the first (or some flaky memory in the PC) you will have a rotten second one.

A third, stored outside the home you refresh with low intervals (half a year or so) might be a good strategy.

[dougme57]

I have done it for years. I purchased an off lease small form pc (recently my second one) for less than $200 and I usb into an external sound card, I use a creative. I run optical into my receiver for audio and use my receivers dacs, My receiver is an Onkyo 708 and my speakers are ACI.

I run HDMI from the pc into my receiver and out to my projector. I use the free version of the older JRiver. While a mid-fi system i love it. Access to any or all of my music instantly and the sound is pretty darn good to me. It is a fun hobby and I now listen to more music than ever.

I keep everything in FLAC files. With pc, cables, sound card and connectors I am well under $300.

[HsvHeelFan]

I built a dedicated AMD based music pc a couple of years ago.

I chose to use the ASUS Xonar Essence STX sound card and I take RCA out and feed it to my classic stereo pre-amp.

So, what I did was build a computer to essentially replace a CD Player that happens to store ALL of my CDs in digital format.   

I'm using JRiver Media Center and all of my music files are FLAC.  It took around a month of ripping CDs for 3 hours or so a night to get my CD library converted.

There are lots of different ways to solve the problem.

Good luck on your journey!

HsvHeelFan

[randytsuch]

You can also run jriver on a mac, and then play flac and hi rez (DSD) files.  Also supports FLAC at 96kHz, haven't tried 192 but it should work.  Probably does wav too, but I just play flac.

Jriver for Mac is relatively new, and still has some bugs, but I haven't upgraded versions in a little while, new version may be more stable.  It crashes occasionally on me now.

[Don_S]

Thanks for all of the responses.  Someone in quicksand always appreciates it when they are handed a rock. 

To answer some questions.
I would like the highest fidelity possible.  I do not want to always question the source quality. While I do have some cost concerns I am not trying to do this on a shoestring budget.

I have an iPad which I really like. I could use it to control. I could also use something like Team Viewer. The Mac Mini is on loan with an option to buy. It was purchased in December, 2011 and used for two weeks.  I have no idea what the OS is. I am not locked into a Mini. In fact I am beginning to hate Apple (except for my iPad). Both my monitors work fine with my new HP but neither work with the Apple. Sometimes I think Apple just wanted to be different but not necessarily better. I do like the size and form factor of the Mini vs a tower. But  could buy a cheap PC for the cost of the used Mini and feel more at home. I also think Minis are stupid because they do not have an optical drive and force the user to duct tape an external to the top of the Mini.

iTunes??? What is that.  I am not using anything right now. This project is just a gleam in my eye and a pain in my butt.

Will a Mini not run FLAC? I see conflicting posts.  For metadata all I care about is album art, album title, artist, track title.

I would connect to my system via a DAC (do not own at this time) connected to my preamp. I would like any software to make it easy to make play lists. I own too many CDs that suck except for one or two songs. Play lists are also nice for testing new equipment or showing off.

[PMAT]

I am with you on this one.I want to do this too. We need some definitive answers on how to do this right the first time and with super high quality. Gleaming through hundreds of threads to piece this together is not what we want. Expert advice please, please, please.

[jhm731]

Don,

If you're looking for the "highest fidelity possible," the most important element is the DAC.

The computer is just an appliance to move your music files from a HD to the DAC for conversion.

Here's a good site to visit for DAC reviews:

http://www.audiostream.com/

[JRace]

The first and most important step is converting (ripping) your music from cd to hard drive.
You have a few decisions to make,
1) file format.
Wav
flac
Aiff

I choose FLAC as it is bit-perfect, can be converted back to WAV without loss, has full tagging support, and is widely adoted by manufactures.

2) you need to choose a file naming scheme.
For example i use
D:\music\Artist - Year - Album\Track # - Track Name

This way all my folders are organized first by artist, then by year. Makes for a clean organization of folders.

[JohnR]

A friend loaned me an almost new Mac Mini that he wishes to sell. I can’t get it to work properly with either monitor I try it with

That does seem a little unusual. Are there any adapters in play? I found that the (included? I got one with the 2011 mini) Apple HDMI-DVI adapter worked fine, but when I wanted to go directly to DisplayPort for a new monitor, getting a good miniDisplayPort-DisplayPort cable from Eizo resolved issues I had when using a third-party adapter.

[Don_S]

John,

My friend pulled the Mini off of a shelf. I did not get the adapter that normally comes with it. He was not using it so it is stuck in a drawer somewhere or still in the Apple box.  I need to get that from him to see if it helps.

With both my monitors I used a straight HDMI>HDMI cable. On the 19" TV the display is too large and control buttons are off the screen. I can't figure out how to resize it.  With a PC it is easy. On my 22" HP monitor I do not get any display.  I get a faint flashing of light like the screen can't sync. When I press the setup button on the monitor I get a split-second display of what the Mini is transmitting. It appears I can't adjust the display on the monitor until I actually get a signal locked on.

Both monitors work great with two different PCs and I know the HDMI cable works because it is what I am using on my desktop.

[geowak]

I'll throw in my 2 cents, even though I am not a computer based audio perfectionist. I run Itunes on a Macbook pro. I like the simplicity and versatlity of Itunes for rippping lossless AIFF files from my CDs and organzing music. I know there are many programs out there, but Itunes and Mac are a stable platform. Since the OP had a Mac mini, there is already some compatability. Also a top notch external DAC, as mentioned, is key for great sound. Sometimes I think a really good DAC produces good enough sound, without worry about the proper high sample rate or hi rez format.
BTW
If you decide to go mac and mac mini, there is a tutorial that JohnR has written on The Apple core(Mac) audio. Computer Audio on a Mac- getting started. It's worth a look...

[Scott F.]

I'll jump in too though the Mac guys may not care for my opinion.


I've been doing computer audio since the days of the SB-2. I've played with numerous wireless interface devices and numerous DACs, USB included. I still own and use several of those devices.


Though I don't have much experience with Macs, I do have running experience with iTunes for PCs. I can say, unequivocally, iTunes for PC is complete crap. It's like an 8th grader wrote the code. Why Mac hasn't done a major re-write on the software is...oh well. The other thing you'll find on iTunes, if ever you look at the file tree on a PC where the music resides, it's encrypted. The folders are numbers and the songs are random characters. Let me qualify this, when I made a back up copy of my iPod hard drive, that is what copied over. I suppose it's because of the DRM nonsense but trying to find a specific folder or a song is literally impossible. Next, if you change computers, you may run into major issues, again, because of all the DRM BS and iTunes registrations. Needless to say, I don't like iTunes.


On a PC, life is much simpler. You can create and name your folders based upon musician names, genres, whatever. I would suggest buying (as I've done) an inexpensive PC. I bought a HP with 4gig of memory and a one terabyte drive for $450 (no monitor) from BestBuy. Then I bought a copy of JRiver for $50. JRiver allows you to rip in any format you wish, MP3, FLAC, WAV, APE, etc.. When you insert the CD into the drive, it is automatically recognized, all metadata is downloaded from the internet and it also pulls in cover art. The only thing you have to do after the rips is drag and drop the files into the folder you created for that artist. You could leave them all in the 'rip' folder I suppose but it may get a bit overwhelming after a hundred or so CDs. You can also point JRiver at your external drives and folders. Actually, you can point it at anyplace on your home network.


The JRiver interface is extremely easy to navigate on the PC. Playlists are very easy to create. If you want, you can invest a couple hundred bucks on an Android based pad, then download JRiver's Gizmo app and control you music from the pad. That interface is fairly decent, not stellar but decent and fairly intuitive. Overall, JRiver is very robust. It's worthy of surfing over to their website and looking at all their features. They go way beyond music.


Connecting the PC to your system can be done numerous ways. You can go with an aftermarket soundcard and traditional interconnects or do the USB DAC thing. The latter works the best for me. You can run a USB cable up to about 15'. If you don't want that, just run longer interconnects from your DAC. I do the long USB personally. On the DAC side, there are a host of decent sounding DACs for under $500. There is a separate thread for that discussion on this site. All in, you should be just over $1k for a pretty decent sounding PC based system complete with an Android pad for remote control.


One word about the Squeezebox (Logitech) software....it's crap too. It is a bit more advanced than iTunes but not by much. It looks like a high school senior wrote it.


Which sounds better? Some say Macs. I've heard both and quite honestly it's a toss up. Everything comes down to the quality of the components.


...just my $.02

[Don_S]

Scott,

I like the PC approach.  It would be nice to have a computer that actually works. And PCs are more affordable.  Do you know of any with smaller towers or different form factors?  My new HP W7 is a huge tower. The size works OK in my office but not for my listening room. I don't understand why computer companies don't make a smaller box option. But that is a different rant.

I have an iPad.  Will J-River work on it or do I need to buy a new controller?  Could I use an app like TeamViewer to control J-River on the other computer?  I am frequently at my main computer listening to music on my main system. It would be nice to pull up TeamViewer and change CDs. I would still need a tablet controller for most listening.

[Scott F.]

Hi Don,


The Dell Optiplex 7010 is a small form factor PC. This particular one I use at work and it's a bit more expensive than the bigger boxes. There are cheaper ones out there though.


I just checked the JRiver Wiki and it looks like you use WebGizmo as the interface on your iPad, so yes, it will work as your remote.
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Category:Frequently_Asked_Questions


When it comes to sitting at another computer on your home network, JRiver allows (I think) five separate installs. They will all read back to the root installation. I've not had the need to do that but I've read the details on their website.

[Hipper]

I recommend you just get a cheapish working system going to start with to see if the concept of computer audio really works for you.

I started on the computer audio road earlier this year. I had a spare Vista laptop, bought an external hard drive and cheap USB DAC (TEAC UDH01) (incidentally I found that a Furutech USB cable costing about £50 made a radical difference to the sound quality compared the stock cable coming with the TEAC). You could also buy instead something like the Music Fidelity V link 192 to connect your pc to an existing DAC. I also bought JRiver mc18 as software to manage the music.

I used EAC to rip my CDs on my main pc, then transferred them to my external hard drive and back up hd. This is the most time consuming part of computer music and you don't want to have to repeat it so it's important to imagine your future requirements (as you seem to be) and act accordingly. This link gives good advice on how best to rip and strategies you might adopt:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/309-computer-audiophile-cd-ripping-strategy-and-methodology/

Advice on JRiver is here:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/436-jriver-media-center-17-detail/

As with much software, it takes a while to explore the many possibilities it has but it works very well and there's a very active forum if you get into difficulties.

Eventually I realised that pc audio was useful so I'm in the process of creating a headphone system. I bought a quiet pc with heat sinks and no fans with windows 8 and various electrical noise reduction cards installed, pretty much on the lines of C.A.P.S.v3, but with an internal hard drive to store the music. With this I use an old Dell monitor and Dell touchpad to operate it but when I add new music to the JRiver library it's easier with a keyboard and mouse.

Moving JRiver and it's library from my laptop to the new pc was not as easy as it is supposed to be. I don't know what happened but I lost all my playlists and about a dozen CDs were corrupted in some way. After attempting some possible easy solutions there was nothing for it but to re-rip the dozen albums and get them in the library, and to recreate the playlists. It could of course have been worse.

I think it's worth the effort and once you know the idea of pc audio works for you, extracting the best sound from the system is the next and more interesting challenge.

[bpape]

Nothing fancy but does the job for your first foray into computer audio.

http://www.officemax.com/technology/computers/desktop-computers/product-prod4570696

Can't build one for that and can use a KVM to share the keyboard, monitor, mouse with another PC in the house. 

Later if you want to move up to a better sound card, etc, that's fine but for $300, this is tough to beat.

Bryan

[lowtech]

One word about the Squeezebox (Logitech) software....it's crap too. It is a bit more advanced than iTunes but not by much. It looks like a high school senior wrote it.

Not sure you're really in a position to make this statement (it demonstrates your ignorance).  Their front end was HTML based, which means it worked on *every* platform that you can imagine, including smart phones that have a web browser (http://YOUR_SERVER:9000).  This has advantages but also (usability) disadvantages.  Personally, I think it was a brilliant decision, but what do I know?  I just write software for a living.

p.s. They also offered a non-html solution which was a little more feature rich; I believe it was written in Java.  As far as I recall, there were also 3rd party UI's available that offered more features, but I never used them.