[James Tanner]

Hi Folks,

It's always good to get both sides of the story 

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=882

james

[Phil A]

James, I love AIX recordings (and Mark is a fantastic engineer) and will probably buy some more at the upcoming Capital Audiofest, however, that being said his business model is based on hi-rez PCM and he has been saying the same things for years.  In the below thread the second post has a link which addresses many of the things he has been saying.  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=116727.msg1223763#msg1223763

[James Tanner]

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=74

[Phil A]

I should add that Mark is really great to talk to.  I talked to him for a bit at the last Capital Audiofest and he will be at the upcoming one at the end of this month.  I finally got around to listening to the Blu-Ray I got at last years' Capital Audiofest a couple of weeks back - http://www.aixrecords.com/catalog/bd_3d/mozart_bd_3d.html

I listened to the multi-channel audience mix and I do like his approach as it gives everyone a choice as far as preferences (and I'll get around to the other mixes).  I've yet to listen to the other mixes (I'm busy digitizing the music collection).  I've been buying AIX recording for many years.

My point is that just like any other business that has a stake in what they say, I would not take their opinion as the last word.  Not picking on anyone.  For example, here's a manufacturer (and I have not heard their products so I can't comment) who makes Class D amps.  I would not expect them to say that other technologies are better - http://www.newclearaudio.com/Site/NC1000L_Amp.html

[ted_b]

Mark's products are wonderful, and I own many of them.  As a huge surround guy I love that Mark embraced it years ago.  But his agenda is clear, which is fine I guess (since it's so transparent).  But it seems his DSD comments are refuted often, and easily.   I really wish there wasn't this "not only is my format better but yours is wrong" kind of mentality.  These folks have never heard good DSD;  I SURE have heard good 24 bit PCM and love it.  Who wouldn't.

But for a mfg'er like Benchmark to come out with a DSD DAC then put the format down (i.e it's just marketing) is amazingly disingenuous. 

For these guys to argue that DSD is not able to be mastered without PCM, or that DXD is used heavily in native DSD masterings...is just blatant misinformation.  Sonoma is pure DSD, and dozens of folks like Channel Classics use PCM (like DXD) simply for editing, not mixing or mastering.  Yes, there are plenty of PCM-mastered SACDs, but that's not what has the DSD world abuzz.  It's the native and analog-to-DSD stuff that is now available, and quite musical.  Have they even heard the Opus 3 DSD128 transfers??  No!  That's a competitor, I guess.

This kind of posturing is bad for a music industry already on life support.

[Phil A]

I really wish there wasn't this "not only is my format better but yours is wrong" kind of mentality. 

Ted, could not agree more.  When SACD and DVD-A got introduced, I was happy to have great recordings regardless of formats and even went the route of separate players for each format (with a Sony TA-P9000ES multi-channel preamp so I switch and could listen to multi-channel on each format easily).  It was almost amusing (but certainly not helpful with each format having limited support by the audiophile community as their mainstream customers) to watch the boards go back and forth and reading posts without first hand knowledge of hearing things one could reasonable come to the conclusion that one format was hi-rez and the other was low-rez. I understand that one has to believe in their own products, and if one did not, that would not be a good thing.  It doesn't help the business as a whole if you end up using misinformation which causes customers to lose interest in hi-rez.

[James Tanner]

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/dsd-or-not-dsd-16093/

[James Tanner]

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/musician-and-vocalist-artist-interviews/musician-and-vocalist-artist-interviews/mark-levinson-for-the-love-of-music-part-2.html

[Phil A]

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue26/dsd.htm

The end result of pitting anything against something else and turn off even a small segment of the potential audiophile customer base, which although small in comparison to mainstream music listeners, could do nothing to help the already ravaged high end B&M retail establishment already hurting due to the internet and other factors.  A couple of people spending money on other interests could push more out of the business.  There is nothing wrong with hi-rez, PCM or DSD.

[Dr. AIX]

James...thanks for the heads up on this thread. I admit to being a PCM guy but I do not have a horse in the game regarding hardware or codecs as some of the DSD advocates do. I do believe that the end listening experience of both DSD and HD PCM can be terrific. The recordings that we did in Montana to analog tape, 96/24-bit PCM and DSD 64 were all great when played back through VTL tubes amps, Transparent Cables and Wilson Alexandria XLF  loudspeakers. Peter McGrath, myself and others all agreed that the DSD and PCM sounded really wonderful.

My message is not that consumers shouldn't enjoy their vinyl LPs, analog tape, CD, SA-CDs, DVD-As, Blu-ray and HD Files...but instead that they should be aware of some of the differences between them.

There is a reason that PCM and recently HD PCM rules the world of professional audio production, is the format for CD, DVD-Audio, Blu-ray and virtually all high quality digital downloads (prior to compression being applied). Heck, it's even the go to format for those producing and marketing DSD-based releases (DXD is just PCM with three letters that invoke DSD...I actually thought it was DSD for a long time).

There is room in the world for all these formats. My concern about DSD is that it confuses the issues associated with better quality digital downloads in a world that isn't clear at all. It does a fantastic job of reproducing audio up to CD specs, the so-called "audio band" the it touted in the white papers and articles on the format. I'm interested in the increased frequency response and the real world dynamic range of 96 kHz/24-bit PCM.

Finally, the world (even the HD-Audio world) is moving to streaming. Orastream is already doing it and the writing is on the wall...variable bandwidth streaming algorithms for HD-Audio are already in place (MP4SLS)...I'm not aware of any efforts on the DSD side of the equation.

Even the Mark Levinson interview that was linked to above contains his admission that the world is a PCM place....and he's recognized that PCM is the future.

Thanks for the links to my daily posts at RealHD-Audio.com...this has become a great way to get information out.

[RLL1]

It may just be coincidental, but I can't help but thinking that the posting yesterday, in the "What is Your Latest Acquisition" topic, of my new Meitner DAC, along with my desire to "give DSD a whirl", was the motivation behind this thread.

For me, purchasing a DAC with DSD compatibility was all about choice, and the opportunity to try something different. I'm not an audio engineer, and all of the technical details of PCM and DSD are irrelevant to me. I just want to enjoy music, and have an opportunity to form my own opinion as to what appeals to my ears.

If DSD functionality is more costly for the manufacturer and consumer, so what. Keep in mind, we are dealing with a segment of the population, me included, that spends thousands of dollars on cables, and cords, and isolation tweaks designed to stop 150 lb amplifiers from vibrating???

But at the end of the day, if DSD dies a slow death, or in my opinion was not all that impressive anyway, I am still left with a good DAC, and the knowledge that I had an opportunity to give it a try.

I am sure that the manufacturers, who have decided against providing this opportunity to their customers at this time, have performed a cost-benefit analysis, but as the list of DSD capable components continues to grow, it may be time to revisit their thinking.

Rick

[Phil A]

But at the end of the day, if DSD dies a slow death, or in my opinion was not all that impressive anyway, I am still left with a good DAC, and the knowledge that I had an opportunity to give it a try.


Rick

I could not agree more - that's the main reason I got the Meitner.  I can play my many DSD files and even if everything in the future were hi-rez PCM, I still have the capability.  I'm in process of digitizing files and eventually early next year a move and I'll be looking for a DAC or DACs for perhaps more than one for secondary systems.  At least of one those will need to do DSD if I am to consider it.  I don't mind having a DAC that can do hi-rez PCM only either as long it does it well.

[kingdeezie]

I could not agree more - that's the main reason I got the Meitner.  I can play my many DSD files and even if everything in the future were hi-rez PCM, I still have the capability.  I'm in process of digitizing files and eventually early next year a move and I'll be looking for a DAC or DACs for perhaps more than one for secondary systems.  At least of one those will need to do DSD if I am to consider it.  I don't mind having a DAC that can do hi-rez PCM only either as long it does it well.

The Meitner is a great DAC. I bought one late last year, and don't even have any DSD files to listen to. On PCM though, both redbook and high resolution, the DAC does a great job of presenting a detailed, yet natural presentation.

I am sure there are better DACS out there, but they most likely cost much more money then I would ever spend on a DAC.

The fact that it does DSD was icing on the cake, and at least gives me some sort of (false) sense of "future proofing."

[Phil A]

DTS did not seem to find its way onto many DVDs and seems to have made a resurgence with Blu-Ray.  When he were still in the era of DVDs to me a HT receiver without DTS was a missing feature.  There was a big debate about whether Dolby Digital or DTS sounded better. It really isn't much different with PCM vs. DSD.  Too much is made to be format vs. the art of mixing and mastering.  AIX records is a great example of that done right.  I have CDs that are mastered better than many hi-rez recordings.

[James Tanner]

James...thanks for the heads up on this thread. I admit to being a PCM guy but I do not have a horse in the game regarding hardware or codecs as some of the DSD advocates do. I do believe that the end listening experience of both DSD and HD PCM can be terrific. The recordings that we did in Montana to analog tape, 96/24-bit PCM and DSD 64 were all great when played back through VTL tubes amps, Transparent Cables and Wilson Alexandria XLF  loudspeakers. Peter McGrath, myself and others all agreed that the DSD and PCM sounded really wonderful.

My message is not that consumers shouldn't enjoy their vinyl LPs, analog tape, CD, SA-CDs, DVD-As, Blu-ray and HD Files...but instead that they should be aware of some of the differences between them.

There is a reason that PCM and recently HD PCM rules the world of professional audio production, is the format for CD, DVD-Audio, Blu-ray and virtually all high quality digital downloads (prior to compression being applied). Heck, it's even the go to format for those producing and marketing DSD-based releases (DXD is just PCM with three letters that invoke DSD...I actually thought it was DSD for a long time).

There is room in the world for all these formats. My concern about DSD is that it confuses the issues associated with better quality digital downloads in a world that isn't clear at all. It does a fantastic job of reproducing audio up to CD specs, the so-called "audio band" the it touted in the white papers and articles on the format. I'm interested in the increased frequency response and the real world dynamic range of 96 kHz/24-bit PCM.

Finally, the world (even the HD-Audio world) is moving to streaming. Orastream is already doing it and the writing is on the wall...variable bandwidth streaming algorithms for HD-Audio are already in place (MP4SLS)...I'm not aware of any efforts on the DSD side of the equation.

Even the Mark Levinson interview that was linked to above contains his admission that the world is a PCM place....and he's recognized that PCM is the future.

Thanks for the links to my daily posts at RealHD-Audio.com...this has become a great way to get information out.

Thanks for the input Mark - getting both sides of the discussion leads to more and valuable information which allows for educated decisions.

james

[James Tanner]

Hi Mark,

Can you expand on your statement below more fully please.

james

Finally, the world (even the HD-Audio world) is moving to streaming. Orastream is already doing it and the writing is on the wall...variable bandwidth streaming algorithms for HD-Audio are already in place (MP4SLS)...I'm not aware of any efforts on the DSD side of the equation.

[Phil A]

Orastream's site is here - http://www.orastream.com/playlists/webstore.  In the earlier days of AOL and shortly after they bought Time Warner, their vision was a device in the home that allowed the streaming of audio and video of your choice.  There's no question with 4K video streaming on the horizon and better technology and better speeds available that services which allow streaming content for a reasonable price (such as Redbook prices) can make an impact on the market.

[James Tanner]

It may just be coincidental, but I can't help but thinking that the posting yesterday, in the "What is Your Latest Acquisition" topic, of my new Meitner DAC, along with my desire to "give DSD a whirl", was the motivation behind this thread.

For me, purchasing a DAC with DSD compatibility was all about choice, and the opportunity to try something different. I'm not an audio engineer, and all of the technical details of PCM and DSD are irrelevant to me. I just want to enjoy music, and have an opportunity to form my own opinion as to what appeals to my ears.

If DSD functionality is more costly for the manufacturer and consumer, so what. Keep in mind, we are dealing with a segment of the population, me included, that spends thousands of dollars on cables, and cords, and isolation tweaks designed to stop 150 lb amplifiers from vibrating???

But at the end of the day, if DSD dies a slow death, or in my opinion was not all that impressive anyway, I am still left with a good DAC, and the knowledge that I had an opportunity to give it a try.

I am sure that the manufacturers, who have decided against providing this opportunity to their customers at this time, have performed a cost-benefit analysis, but as the list of DSD capable components continues to grow, it may be time to revisit their thinking.

Rick

Hi Rick

Bryston is certainly under pressure to offer DSD in our new products and the DACs in the new BDP2 and the new BUC1 can do DSD - we just have to provide the software. We probably will for as you say the market forces are pushing us in that direction.

I have been aware for a while now though of the differing opinions about the superiority 'or not' of DSD over PCM and feel that information from the experts is valuable to everyone to put it all in perspective.

James

[wisnon]

At the end of the day, engineering talk amounts to a hill of beans. Just have a listen to native DSD played thru a good system and make up your own mind. I am voting with my wallet, DSD is a must for me!

The only "expert" is you the listener and what pleases your ears.

I have been warning manufacturers for more than a year, offer DSD or suffer marketing losses in the field. Many, many audiophile want DSD capability. It is essentially a high end Dac deal breaker... pure business fundamental.

[RLL1]

Hi Rick

Bryston is certainly under pressure to offer DSD in our new products and the DACs in the new BDP2 and the new BUC1 can do DSD - we just have to provide the software. We probably will for as you say the market forces are pushing us in that direction.

I have been aware for a while now though of the differing opinions about the superiority 'or not' of DSD over PCM and feel that information from the experts is valuable to everyone to put it all in perspective.

James

James,

If you made the BDP-2 DSD capable, I would be first in line to get one. My current BDP-1 would be a welcome addition to my second system.

Rick