[Skiman]

You know Danny, it's mostly your fault that I'm in this situation. That's because I have a pair of LS9s and an LS center now with Electra Cable tube connectors. My room, by the way, was designed by Rives audio, and is double wall green glued, and fully treated (click on my gallery and/or systems for more. The LS9 pictured on its side has been replaced with an LS center).
 
I 'sort of' have two systems now, as everything stereo goes into my Pass Labs preamp, and multichannel through the Marantz prepro. But there really isn't enough space up front for a second 'front end' including my turntable, especially with the 10' screen lowered.

I happen to agree with your thought on movies in general, but I absolutely love listening to multichannel SACDs and DVD Audio, not to mention concert Blu rays. I probably spend more time listening to music than watching movies in that room.

But I'm trying to upgrade my stereo listening experience, so it looks like I'll go with my original plan. I've heard good things about Electra Cable B-6, but will need a pair of long XLR interconnects that won't break the bank. LS9 deserve it.

See you at RMAF



 

[persisting1]

I'll only watch a movie once. I don't want to watch them again. To me it is like watching the same ball game over and over. Why do that when you already know how it will end?

You're not the only one 

[bdp24]

You know Danny, it's mostly your fault that I'm in this situation. That's because I have a pair of LS9s and an LS center now with Electra Cable tube connectors. My room, by the way, was designed by Rives audio, and is double wall green glued, and fully treated (click on my gallery and/or systems for more. The LS9 pictured on its side has been replaced with an LS center).
 
I 'sort of' have two systems now, as everything stereo goes into my Pass Labs preamp, and multichannel through the Marantz prepro. But there really isn't enough space up front for a second 'front end' including my turntable, especially with the 10' screen lowered.

I happen to agree with your thought on movies in general, but I absolutely love listening to multichannel SACDs and DVD Audio, not to mention concert Blu rays. I probably spend more time listening to music than watching movies in that room.

But I'm trying to upgrade my stereo listening experience, so it looks like I'll go with my original plan. I've heard good things about Electra Cable B-6, but will need a pair of long XLR interconnects that won't break the bank. LS9 deserve it.

See you at RMAF

Danny's advice to try before you buy is, of course, the best advice. There is a company that advertizes in Stereophile that sends out interconnects and speaker wire with a deposit, and you can return them if you don't want to keep them. They also sell used trade-ins. Wish I could help you out with a name! The Kimber silver speaker wire has remained unchanged since it was introduced over a decade ago---always a good sign. It's named KCAG, and a foot or two of it won't cost too much. More than a few big-time reviewers use it as their reference. I also have ten foot Kimber balanced interconnects named Silver Streak, a silver/copper mix (silver send strands, copper return and ground---I didn't want to spring for ten feet of KCAG!). I didn't mention them because they weren't cheap, and I didn't want to scare you off of long interconnects (or start a debate about expensive wire!). Besides, you can get some Belden balanced cables to begin with (they're cheap), and try others as finances allow.

[avahifi]

Lets use a bit of logic about this issue maybe?

A power amplifier is designed to be a load driving device.  A preamp usually is just a voltage amplifying device.

A speaker cable, no matter how long within rational limits and as long as it is not excessively capacitive, is a negligible load for a power amplifier to drive.

A long interconnect of even normal capacitance, combined with the input capacitance of the power amp, can easily be a very difficult load for the normal puny drive current capacity of a preamplifier.

There are easy electrical engineering questions and answer regarding the ability of your preamplifier to drive excessively capacitive loads.

The question is, what peak output current is necessary to charge and discharge the total capacitive load connected to the output of my preamp without causing current limiting in its output stage over the frequency range of interest?  What is the max current capability of my preamp's output stage?  If answer one is greater than answer two, your system is running at very high distortion at least some of the time.

So not even considering that the low level signal from your preamp to your power amp is much more susceptible to noise pickup than the high level signal from your power amp to your speakers, any rational observation of this question would tell us to keep interconnect cables as short as possible and let the power amplifier deal with longer speaker wires if necessary.

By the way, if you are plagued with RFI pickup in your speaker wires from a nearby radio station or such, simply chuck your normal mundate two conductor speaker wires in an electric drill and give them about three twists per foot.  That should resolve that issue.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[rollo]

Lets use a bit of logic about this issue maybe?

A power amplifier is designed to be a load driving device.  A preamp usually is just a voltage amplifying device.

A speaker cable, no matter how long within rational limits and as long as it is not excessively capacitive, is a negligible load for a power amplifier to drive.

A long interconnect of even normal capacitance, combined with the input capacitance of the power amp, can easily be a very difficult load for the normal puny drive current capacity of a preamplifier.

There are easy electrical engineering questions and answer regarding the ability of your preamplifier to drive excessively capacitive loads.

The question is, what peak output current is necessary to charge and discharge the total capacitive load connected to the output of my preamp without causing current limiting in its output stage over the frequency range of interest?  What is the max current capability of my preamp's output stage?  If answer one is greater than answer two, your system is running at very high distortion at least some of the time.

So not even considering that the low level signal from your preamp to your power amp is much more susceptible to noise pickup than the high level signal from your power amp to your speakers, any rational observation of this question would tell us to keep interconnect cables as short as possible and let the power amplifier deal with longer speaker wires if necessary.

By the way, if you are plagued with RFI pickup in your speaker wires from a nearby radio station or such, simply chuck your normal mundate two conductor speaker wires in an electric drill and give them about three twists per foot.  That should resolve that issue.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

     There it is in a nutshell. Thank you sir for the explanation.  Now I know why that combo has worked for me all this time.


charles

[bdp24]

Lets use a bit of logic about this issue maybe?

A power amplifier is designed to be a load driving device.  A preamp usually is just a voltage amplifying device.

A speaker cable, no matter how long within rational limits and as long as it is not excessively capacitive, is a negligible load for a power amplifier to drive.

A long interconnect of even normal capacitance, combined with the input capacitance of the power amp, can easily be a very difficult load for the normal puny drive current capacity of a preamplifier.

There are easy electrical engineering questions and answer regarding the ability of your preamplifier to drive excessively capacitive loads.

The question is, what peak output current is necessary to charge and discharge the total capacitive load connected to the output of my preamp without causing current limiting in its output stage over the frequency range of interest?  What is the max current capability of my preamp's output stage?  If answer one is greater than answer two, your system is running at very high distortion at least some of the time.

So not even considering that the low level signal from your preamp to your power amp is much more susceptible to noise pickup than the high level signal from your power amp to your speakers, any rational observation of this question would tell us to keep interconnect cables as short as possible and let the power amplifier deal with longer speaker wires if necessary.

By the way, if you are plagued with RFI pickup in your speaker wires from a nearby radio station or such, simply chuck your normal mundate two conductor speaker wires in an electric drill and give them about three twists per foot.  That should resolve that issue.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Looks like I need to reconsider my system hook-up! I've been reading Mr. Van Alstine's writing on hi-fi since the 80's, when I started receiving his monthly newsletter. I've always enjoyed and appreciated his viewpoint, coming as it was from a solid technical background, explaining why old-fashioned, standard technical characteristics of certain components explained why they sounded the way they did (circuit stability, linearity etc.), to counter the flowery prose of certain Hi-End mags, where the sound was attributed to "magic" parts, as he called them. His was a lone voice (along with The Audio Critic) in the wilderness. Agree with him or not, his arguments were well-founded and supported. If anyone is looking for a good, cheap tube pre-amp, send Frank a Dynaco PAS2 or 3. The quietest pre-amp I've owned---with the volume control at full output and the selector knob set to phono, stone-dead silence. From tubes! He even had the impudence to offer a mod for the Audio Research SP-3 when it was "the" pre-amp to own. So I would listen to FVA on interconnects and speaker wire. I'm going to. My speakers (old Quad electrostatics) are a nasty load for an amplifier, which is one reason I'd prefer to keep my speaker wire short, though Kimber isn't a particularly high capacitance, inductance, or any other -ance wire.

[DaveC113]

FVA, good explanation and I definitely agree if the preamp has single ended outputs... but aren't balanced ICs designed to be used in long runs and a piece of equipment with balanced outs should have the capability to easily drive a long cable? Also, the std for balanced ICs is a shielded, twisted pair while speaker cables are usually not designed to reject noise? This would lead me to believe the best solution really depends on the equipment in use...

[Rocket_Ronny]

I have always run unbalanced in my audio rig and found the shorter the interconnect the better and run 25' speaker cables as I don't want my gear between my speakers due to ill effects on imaging. 

I have found unbalanced interconnects to have profound effects on sound. If running long runs the top end to suffers the most, as in rolled off, and found the difference between long and short speaker cables to be minimal.

If I was running a fully balanced system then long interconnects going to mono blocks next to the speakers would make a lot of sense.

Great explanation Frank. I just need to fully understand it. 

Rocket_Ronny

[Danny Richie]

I guess I have been a bit spoiled. I have been using exclusively pre-amps from Dodd Audio and they easily drive pretty much anything.

I was using all three sets of outputs of my Dodd pre-amp at RMAF the last few years at RMAF and LSAF. One set drives a pair of mono-block amps powering the main speakers. One pair powers a pair of servo amps that drive the lows on the main speakers. And one set of outputs driving a pair of servo subs in the rear corners of the room. And the servo subs in the rear corners of the room use 25 foot long interconnects made from shielded microphone cables.

And I think we may have the quietest noise floor of any room at the show.

[jcotner]

I guess I have been a bit spoiled. I have been using exclusively pre-amps from Dodd Audio and they easily drive pretty much anything.

I think that's the essence of what Frank was trying to say.
One of the reasons studio folks can get away with the cable they have used for years
it because of the high end electronics they use to drive them.
When a console has $50 op amps in it or better yet discrete drivers you have
currents and slew rates that can drive the loads you find in that environment.
Gary's stuff is high end and built that way so yeah that make sense.

[gregfisk]

Just my personal thoughts on movies is that there are very few of them that I like and enjoy watching. And I am not too freaked out over  getting the last bit of quality and resolution out of the playback. I'll only watch a movie once. I don't want to watch them again. To me it is like watching the same ball game over and over. Why do that when you already know how it will end?

But a great piece of music is like a fine piece of art that hangs on the wall. I will look at it over and over. A good piece of music will be enjoyed over and over. And I want to appreciate it to its fullest. So I don't mind spending some money on something that I will appreciate for a long time.

Danny,

I couldn't agree more about music and movies. My wife really likes to watch TV, but my 22 year old daughter and I are into music. I rarely watch a movie more than once, but a good song just gets better with time and I always want to listen to it again and again. I also notice that the better my system gets the more enjoyment I get from the songs that I like and the more I want to hear them.

[Captainhemo]

. Danny,

I couldn't agree more about music and movies. My wife really likes to watch TV, but my 22 year old daughter and I are into music. I rarely watch a movie more than once, but a good song just gets better with time and I always want to listen to it again and again. I also notice that the better my system gets the more enjoyment I get from the songs that I like and the more I want to hear them.

+1 on   that..
When I originally built my N3 TL's,   the intent was to use them for about a 70/30  music/HT split.  After I  completed them and  began  getting so much more enjoyment  from   the music,  I found myself  watching fewer and  fewer movies. I get much more enjoyment  from  music than   from watching a movie.
Now that I  have  moved to the OB7's and into my fist tube amp,    I find that the ONLY time i watch a movie is when  my neice   wants  to hang out and  watch something.  Aside from  that and  hockey,  the TV never even gets turned on
I know I am miles from  where many of you  are at in your  "audio heven" quests,  but in the past couple years  I have  come  a  long way from  where I was and am enjoying  the music  every day 

-jay

[OzarkTom]

Definitely short interconnects is the best. I often wondered why so many manufacturers started using short speaker cables and long IC's back in the 80's, didn't they ever listen?

[bdp24]

I heard a lot of Magneplanar's connected to tube pre-amps and power amps via really long interconnects in the 70's and 80's. Talk about rolled-off highs! Maggies back then (pre-ribbon type tweeters) had soft highs to begin with, and then after long runs of high-capacitance wire from high-output impedance tube pre-amps to tube power amps, the problem was aggrevated. If you have a balanced-output pre-amp capable of adequately powering a balanced input power amp, you can prevent that type of situation. Of course, the best answer is short interconnects AND short speaker wire!

[corndog71]

Definitely short interconnects is the best. I often wondered why so many manufacturers started using short speaker cables and long IC's back in the 80's, didn't they ever listen?

Perhaps it was due to listening to 80's CDs. 

[nrenter]

One of the reasons studio folks can get away with the cable they have used for years it because of the high end electronics they use to drive them.

Well, it's because the equipment was designed to take advantage of a specific cable design. Just because a piece of hardware has an XLR connector doesn't mean there's an advantage of using a balanced cable. It has nothing to do with "high end electronics" and everything to do with the circuit topology and interface design.

[OzarkTom]

Perhaps it was due to listening to 80's CDs. 

Early 80's, before CD.

[bdp24]

Well, it's because the equipment was designed to take advantage of a specific cable design. Just because a piece of hardware has an XLR connector doesn't mean there's an advantage of using a balanced cable. It has nothing to do with "high end electronics" and everything to do with the circuit topology and interface design.

Yeah, some pre-amps and power amps with XLR's don't really have a balanced topology, or a true balanced signal. Some companies put an inverting stage right before the output, just to provide an XLR output. And then some companies design an amp with an intrisically balanced design, and are meant to be used that way (the Atma-Sphere OTL amps, for instance). RCA jacks are then provided for those users without XLR jacks on their other pieces.

[jcotner]

I design electronic equipment professionally and my point here is that is most nearly every case
cheap equipment does not have high current/high slew rate drivers for balanced outputs.
Which you need to drive long runs (higher capacitance) cable.
In some cases the designers don't even use OP amps but rather discrete devices to
ensure long cable runs can be driven with low noise and distortion.
I typically tend to view professional studio gear in the "high end" category and I'm
speaking from that angle, at least from the XLR output drive capability.
Topology is determined by performance objectives in system design and once a
person has gone through that exercise then they can pick suitable electronics
based on the ability of the electronics to operate in that design environment.
And I say that because sometimes you can pick a topology first only to find
you can't meet your design requirements with it.
At least that's what they taught us in engineering school.
But back to that fellow that just wanted to know which to use I'm still very
much a fan of long XLR runs(with proper electronics driving them) over
long speaker cable runs.

[Skiman]

My personal view regarding a large home theater system or home theater room that also doubled as a music listening room would be two separate systems.
You can even share an amp or set of mono-blocks between the two systems.

Danny's comments got me rethinking my setup, and I finally had an Eureka moment. The monoblocks that I'm adding are Emotiva XPR-1, and they have a pair of inputs that are switched. One XLR and one RCA. I can connect both preamps, leave them powered, and simply flip a switch on each monoblock to go back and forth. I'll locate the monblocks up front, next to the main left and right speakers, and connect them to the (less critical) surround prepro with a pair of long but resonably priced XLR cables. I'll move my Pass Labs stereo preamp up front, buy an Oppo BDP 105 and locate it up front, and connect to the monoblocks with short but high end speaker cables.