[Audioexcels]

I'm sure there are plenty of people around here that have heard their fair share of KT88 or even 6550 (close enough) varieties.  Tubes that come to mind are of course the EAT, Shuguang Treasures, Canada Fullers, and 6550 wise, NOS Tung Sols and GE's.

I unfortunately have never had the pleasure to spend as much as my amps cost me to roll these mega buck tubes.

Two questions:

1) Is there a general consensus regarding the sound of these higher $$$$ tubes and just what precisely they do better than say, the next step down tubes such as the GL re-issue, any 6550 re-issue, even a cheaper Shuguang type, and the Penta KT88SC's?

2) From my experience, I can hear a difference between different output tubes.  However, the difference is more of a tonality and not quite so night/day in terms of how much it does to the overall sound of the amp.  My experience with driver tubes in an amp is literally a night/day difference where one tube can actually tailor the amp's sound in a drastic/contrasting manner.

I ask question 2 only because I'm curious if the output tubes are capable of making such that tremendous difference in sound that I have heard with the input tubes or if regardless of the budget, the output tubes as many do claim, will sound different, but not enough to warrant the costs since the difference is not astoundingly different.

Thanks for your input and discussion.

[orientalexpress]

A bunch of friends got together doing Tubes roll with Kt88 include Russian ,cheap shugunce  ,black treasure ,Psvane plus a few other everybody agree the Psvane mk11 sound the best .I'm so bless with so many audiophiles in our area.


lapsan

[roscoeiii]

Though not all amps that take KT88s can use them (check with the manufacturer), many people have also liked the Tungsol KT120s as output tubes. I liked them over my EH KT88s, but have not made any other comparisons.

[thorman]

 I recently purchased a new Ayon Spirit 3 ( which I love ) which came with the Ayon KT88 version of the Black Treasure and find them to be superb...I tend to shy away from euphonic sounding tubes and lean towards a more neutral tube..Maybe that is why I like the Ayon KT88's...You could contact USA Tube Audio and talk with Paul,to find out there cost. I think these are specifically Manufactured for Ayon possibly a Yugo tube...

[Octadyn]

My first post
I have a few of the big buck tubes (EAT KT88 - GEC/MOV KT88 - Tesla KT88 - Ei KT90 and original Tung Sol 6550 solid grey and black plates) and  SED KT88 and 6550 - some re-issue Gold Lion KT88's - Tung Sol KT120's. From my personal experience I'll start by saying I have not heard a 'bad' sounding tube. They are all a little different from each other with the exception of the TS grey and black plates. My integrated amp is an Octave V110. My speakers are the Dynaudio C1 Signatures to give you an idea of my taste in sound preference. The Octave is a good example of why some tubes have problems with this IA. The normal plate voltage is 540V (620V for KT120's and Ei KT90's). Very hard to find EAT's and Tesla's that will work with that 540V plate voltage. I lost 3 of 6 EAT KT88's and 1 of 4 Tesla KT88. After losing those tubes I found out those tubes were designed with an optimal plate voltage of 450V. 

As far as the sound
EAT KT88 - without a doubt the most detailed linear sounding (almost SS sounding) from top to bottom.
GEC/MOV KT88 - very close to the EAT with a hair of dryness and a hair less detail. When I say a hair I mean you have to 'squint' the difference.
Tesla KT88 - Very linear but with touch of musicality and a hair less detailed.
Ei KT90 - Very linear - huge sound stage but the highs can sound 'steely' when coupled with an input tube that is extremely linear (hard to explain but a rca 5751 in place of the Sovtek 12ax7lps cured that).
Tung Sol 6550 solid black plate - My FAVORITE - Most musical tube and warmer sounding. Like EL34 mids but with the highs and lows the EL34's seem to lack
Tung Sol 6550 solid grey plate - my 2nd favorite - super close to the black plate but with a hair more forward mids.

SED 6550 - Very linear with some detail but much drier sounding than the EAT (funny I didn't know the SEd was dry sounding until I got the EAT's.
SED KT88 - Not as linear with warmer sounding lows
Gold Lion KT88 re-issue - Somewhere in between the SED 6550 and KT88
Tung Sol KT120 - My least favorite - very linear but also too forward sounding all around for my taste

These are my personal impressions and will say the Big $$$$ tubes are good but like most everything in the audio hobby there comes a point of diminishing returns. IMO the EAT as good as it is has the most as by far the most diminishing return. Now that I have tried all these tubes I will spend big $$ for TS 6550 black plates.

[Audioexcels]

Thanks a lot for the opinions so far.  Please do keep it up as we all hear different things since we all have different gear, but I can see some correlations in it all as well, which obviously helps a lot:)!  I'm personally an input tube makes all the difference vs. output tubes, but I can easily hear output differences, so I am trying to figure out just how much $$$$$ I want to toss into the fire for those diminishing gains as spoken of above.

Bump this up to the top and hope more come in to respond!

[Audioexcels]

A bunch of friends got together doing Tubes roll with Kt88 include Russian ,cheap shugunce  ,black treasure ,Psvane plus a few other everybody agree the Psvane mk11 sound the best .I'm so bless with so many audiophiles in our area.


lapsan

Did you try different input tubes while you tried all of these different output tubes?

Thanks Lapsan!

[Octadyn]

Guess I'm not allowed to to answer a pm yet.
I don't know of any tube that even comes close the TS 6550 black or grey plate.
As far as the Ei KT90 you are right in trying to get the type 2 or 3. Type 1 may not even be around for Ei made tubes by the thousands not millions like Tung Sol - Gec etc. As far as finding them Agon or audioasylum is where I've seen them the most BUT they do not come around often. I do see a lot of the TS black and grey plates on e-pray. I have no experience with the 3 hole version or the new re-issue.

[Steve]

Different brand tubes do sound different, but one must remember that design and parts
make all the difference in the world. If a circuit sounds raspy, harsh, it may be the tube is
not linear, or it may be the circuit being used in inferior, or inferior parts.

It takes different circuits, different parts etc, and lots and lots of time in order to find out what
each brand tube is actually capable of performing. A tube that sounds thin may be filled out with
just a simple adjustment to the design. Filling out the sound may then make another tube sound
too full.

It is similar with capacitors. Use too small of value of coupling capacitor and one can blame the tube or
capacitor for being defective, when in actuality, it is the uf size of the capacitor that was at fault.

The end result has been that the more accurate capacitor or tube "A" was deemed poorer
sounding, sterile, when in actuality it was more accurate. It was more accurate because too small of
value in the particular circuit will sound sterile. The cure is to obtain the proper value for the design.

As one can see, the consequence of improper testing is that the better parts and tubes are shunned,
some becoming extinct, when with the proper circuit, the proper part would have advanced the quality
of reproduction.  So we end up with the opposite of evolution.

Comparisons are going to be requested and opinions given. One has to be careful. What is nice is that
those giving opinions are listing the components so one has a reference, so to speak, which is good.

Another question is, are we looking for accuracy, or for a flavored sound we like?

Cheers.

[Berto]

Great point Steve. Esp since I found opposite results with the new prod Tung Sol KT120s. They sound rich, creamy , musical and just effortless in my rig.   So these comparos (like Steve intelligently pointed out) are alot more dependent on the overall design.

[Octadyn]

Great point Steve. Esp since I found opposite results with the new prod Tung Sol KT120s. They sound rich, creamy , musical and just effortless in my rig.   So these comparos (like Steve intelligently pointed out) are alot more dependent on the overall design.

What I find interesting is that Octave V110 was designed for KT120's. It is more likely I find I like some of the more 'flavored' sound like the TS 6550 and the Ei KT90's. Those tubes get my toes tappin and my head a bobbin  To me those are the most musical sounding tubes. But I also know changing the input and driver/inverter tubes can change the sound of the KT120's. That being said several people have listened to my system and I've even swapped out tubes and so far everyone loves that TS 6550 bp and gp for sounding the best.

[orientalexpress]

Did you try different input tubes while you tried all of these different output tubes?

Thanks Lapsan!

yes,we're use 6sl7 .from,sylvania ,tung sol,GE,russian ,chinese ruby and sophia electric and we're prefer sophia eletric.

[Audioexcels]

Great point Steve. Esp since I found opposite results with the new prod Tung Sol KT120s. They sound rich, creamy , musical and just effortless in my rig.   So these comparos (like Steve intelligently pointed out) are alot more dependent on the overall design.

Mind saying what other output tubes you have used against the TS KT120's?

Thanks and myself agrees there's so much to do with amp/system/etc. dependencies.

[Audioexcels]

yes,we're use 6sl7 .from,sylvania ,tung sol,GE,russian ,chinese ruby and sophia electric and we're prefer sophia eletric.

Are you sure this amp should not be replaced with a 2A3 or 300B type? 

[Audioexcels]

What I find interesting is that Octave V110 was designed for KT120's. It is more likely I find I like some of the more 'flavored' sound like the TS 6550 and the Ei KT90's. Those tubes get my toes tappin and my head a bobbin  To me those are the most musical sounding tubes. But I also know changing the input and driver/inverter tubes can change the sound of the KT120's. That being said several people have listened to my system and I've even swapped out tubes and so far everyone loves that TS 6550 bp and gp for sounding the best.

Thanks for the above posts and shame Audiocircle does not allow you to respond to my pm!  I'm curious, if you were to put the KT120 against the EAT KT88, and you could use any input tubes for either of these tubes, and your goal was to achieve as musical, but also as accurate (fine balance) a result, would the KT120's be able to even contend or are the KT120's a bit of a step below the EAT/Ei/TS6550/etc. more pricey tubes?

[Octadyn]

Thanks for the above posts and shame Audiocircle does not allow you to respond to my pm!  I'm curious, if you were to put the KT120 against the EAT KT88, and you could use any input tubes for either of these tubes, and your goal was to achieve as musical, but also as accurate (fine balance) a result, would the KT120's be able to even contend or are the KT120's a bit of a step below the EAT/Ei/TS6550/etc. more pricey tubes?

Well to me there is no other tube that could contend with the TS 6550's. Unfortunately I don't have a good working quad of EAT's to compare anymore. But when they were working they are to me the most detailed/linear sound I have heard of any tube. I didn't try any other input of driver/inverter tubes. At the time the input was a sed 12ax7 and a pair of sed 12at7's. Actually the EAT's were the 1st big $$$ tube I tried and bought them used.  I also got my 1st quad of TS bp's at the same time. I did also have a quad of Ei KT90's type 2 which at first I liked a lot except for the 'steely' sound on the highs. Changing the input to a Rca 5751 triple mica cleaned up the highs but it was a lot later when I got the Rca. I did start with an Octave V70SE and recently upgraded to the V110 about 2 months ago. When I got the V110 I did use the Rca right away because the V110 came with a Sovtek 12ax7lps which I didn't care for but left the TS re-issue 12at7's in.

So yes it is possible to modify the sound with other tube combinations but I haven't done so as yet with the KT120's. An example of a combo I didn't like was the TS 6550 black plate with the Rca input and Mullard CV4024's (Mullard's made it sound way too warm).  I like to give any tube change I make about 200 hrs before making judgement. To date I have 7 different input tubes and 8 different driver/input tubes. It will take years to hear the possible combinations 

[orientalexpress]

Are you sure this amp should not be replaced with a 2A3 or 300B type?

Nah,not enought headroom or Bass for my quad 57 and quad 63.

[geowak]

I've got the Gold Lion reissue and they are much better in my LM Audio integrated than the ones that it came with. The stock ones probably made in China somewhere??

[Steve]

Thanks and myself agrees there's so much to do with amp/system/etc. dependencies.

Yes, Even a little more in depth, by design, among other reasons, changing the load line will change the harmonic content, thus the perception of a "tube".

Cheers.

[Berto]

Mind saying what other output tubes you have used against the TS KT120's?

Thanks and myself agrees there's so much to do with amp/system/etc. dependencies.

I'm still breaking my amp in, so no comparos yet. I just am really loving the kt120s so far. I luv the body, weight, and extension that they provide. Far from lean IMO. Basically my main point.

 I'm getting some 5881s which I can run and will try to find some TS 6550 black plates, and others and will revisit this thread with comparisons. I'm curious if anyone has tried the creates or psvane treasure 2 kt88s?